Conversations That Matter: The Hidden Productivity Killer You're Ignoring - With Jess Pettitt

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Written By Brian Nelson-Palmer

In this lively episode, Brian Nelson-Palmer sits down with Jess Pettitt—speaker, author, and founder of Good Enough Now—to uncover the hidden productivity killer most teams overlook: the conversations they’re avoiding.

Drawing on years of experience with organizations nationwide, Jess explains how curiosity, vulnerability, and a willingness to get uncomfortable can unlock real productivity and stronger teams.

Listeners will walk away with practical tools—like Jess’s three-part conversation framework—and fresh perspective on handling feedback, workplace disagreements, and team communication.

Want to go deeper? Check out the show notes and resources linked in the episode!

The Video

The Audio/Podcast

References In This Episode

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Conversations That Matter

02:08 The Importance of Humor in Difficult Conversations

04:42 Perfectionism and Productivity

07:09 Curiosity Over Judgment

09:24 The Role of Questions in Communication

11:49 Navigating Differences in Opinions

16:00 Real-Life Impact of Difficult Conversations

23:07 Framework for Taking Responsibility in Conversations

26:47 Understanding Patterns in Human Behavior

29:18 Navigating Difficult Conversations

32:17 The Complexity of Language and Identity

34:15 The Art of Giving Feedback

41:14 Embracing Imperfection in Communication

42:25 The Current Landscape of DEI Work

Today’s Guest

Jess Pettitt

Speaker, Author & Founder of Good Enough Now

Jess Pettitt is a sought-after speaker, author, and the founder of Good Enough Now, a consultancy dedicated to helping teams and organizations spark authentic conversations that drive real results. With a unique blend of humor and insight, Jess draws from years of experience as a standup comic and diversity educator, making even the toughest topics accessible and actionable for audiences nationwide.

Over the past two decades, Jess has delivered keynotes, workshops, and leadership training for organizations in higher education, business, government, and non-profit sectors. Known for her “safe different” approach, she equips teams with the tools to move past perfectionism, embrace curiosity, and have the conversations that truly matter—boosting both productivity and workplace connection.

Beyond her professional work, Jess is a proud dog mom, cheese enthusiast, and a self-described nerd who loves everything from codebreaking biographies to local Nerd Nite meetups. Whether she’s on stage or sharing stories over queso, Jess is passionate about helping people do the best they can with what they’ve got—some of the time.

Connect with her at:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jesspettitt/
Website: goodenoughnow.com

Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian shares separate hacks, tips, and actionable learning exclusively for his email subscribers. Sign up so you don’t miss out!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a leader at all levels, I now train Productivity Gladiators to level up their careers. Graduates wield superpowers in time management, practical leadership, communication, & productivity. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat!

“Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.”

 

Transcript

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:06)

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer and on this show I share personal practical productivity skills that will advance your career. And in this episode, we're talking about conversations that matter. It's the hidden productivity killer that you've been ignoring. And with me on the show today is Jess Pettit, who is a speaker, an author, a dog mom, and a cheese lover. and the founder of Good Enough Now.

Jess, thanks so much for joining me.

Jess Pettitt (00:32)

Absolutely, Brian, thanks for having me. It's an important topic. think there's some real lessons that are deeply tied with our excuses and our perfectionism and all different kinds of things that can be unraveled when talking about productivity. So I'm happy to be here.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:45)

Yeah, and you know, before we dive in a couple of things I wanted to ask you. what is it that you would say makes you different from a lot of the people that talk about conversations that matter in this kind of stuff in the space that you're in?

Jess Pettitt (00:56)

Yeah, so the hook that I think my work hangs on is typically around diversity, controversial topics or issues, politics, current events. And that does not typically get paired with humor. But I think that when you have challenging conversations or the language I use, conversations that matter, it leads to more productivity on an individual or group team basis, because you're also able to take in

polarizing topics or those things that we kind of back up away from and we try not to talk about. But that takes up a lot of space and energy and it's not productive. So I think it's totally aligned.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:34)

Absolutely and you know as I was looking if you look at just petted.com one of the interesting phrases that I saw in there as you describe yourself as safe different. What do you mean by that?

Jess Pettitt (01:45)

Well, I can scare a lot of people because I use hair dye. I am not afraid of a good pattern. And using comedy around topics that make people uncomfortable can be kind of disassociating, I am a big fan of getting uncomfortable and we should get more comfortable being uncomfortable. But the truth is, is that human behavior follows patterns. And so,

I call myself the safe different because I'm talking about human behavior and we have yet to learn from history, but we're doing exactly the same thing that we have always done. So that in itself is safe. There's no real new surprises in human behavior, but I am also like a recovering event professional. So even at the event itself, time management, understanding crisis or emergencies in the middle of an event, the responsibility that I have.

to the audience as well as the client and the stakeholders related to that organization. understand all those things. So that's like another application of safety that they're not necessarily expecting from purple haired and polka dots.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:48)

And you know what's funny is you said safe, different. And what I think about when you said be comfortable getting uncomfortable is I think about, most times the people who are really good at that are stand up comedians. And so people are used to walking into that if you go to a comedy club. But what's interesting is you don't get that when you go to work. So I think it's cool that in the in sort of the professional space and the speaking space, you're bringing that.

Jess Pettitt (03:12)

Yeah, I would say that, you know, I do have a standup background from New York and I think there's like an edgy risk that comes with a standup comedy club or an open mic club But the casual nature of standup comedy and the accessible nature of whatever the comic is talking about, I think parlays really nicely into keynote work.

So my style is very casual and we're talking about very heavy things in a really accessible way. It's just less risk.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:41)

Yeah. Well, let's stop it and jump into our topic then. So what is the hidden productivity killer that most teams are ignoring and how have you seen it impact the organizations you've worked with?

Jess Pettitt (03:52)

Well, thanks for the softball question to start off with.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:55)

I like softball. It's fun. Hit it out of the park, Jess. Go ahead. We're ready.

Jess Pettitt (03:57)

I would say

that they're probably closely related, but the expectation of perfection as well as the entitlement of knowing everything. And if you could let go of both of those, I think that you can do much better work and much more effective work, which ultimately is more productive. So what do I mean by that? So for example,

When trying to be a quote unquote good person, we are often told you are never supposed to make judgments and assumptions, right? Like that's a terrible thing to do. But we make judgments and assumptions to feel safe and prepared, which I think is actually important. So it's not making judgments and assumptions, it's about recognizing that you do and that you might not be accurate.

So you do what you need to do to feel safe and prepared, but then you leave room for edits based on accurate information. But if we're entitled to know everything, then it's very hard to leave room that we could become more accurate because we get really defensive because basically you're saying we're wrong. And what makes you feel safe and prepared doesn't make you wrong. It's just not accurate based on the person you're to, right? So that space.

and challenging that sense of entitlement, I think is important. And then like done versus perfect is doing something, right? Like I like to say that trying is trying because it's exhausting. so, but not doing something is also a response. And so can you try to try because it's at least the right thing to do and you can build momentum from there.

And yeah, you're going to fail and make mistakes, but that's not a reason to not start.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:36)

what does that look like? Like when you when you were just describing that about leaving room for the assumptions to be incorrect or something. it's hard to teach yourself to be ready to pivot when something isn't right. So is that like take a breath before you blow up?

Jess Pettitt (05:43)

Edits.

yeah, the way that I look at it is like, Brian, I just wrote a newsletter article and I'm sending it to you as a draft. Right? So it's a compliment that I look up to you. I really want you to like mess this up. Tell me what I did wrong. Get out the red pin, destroy, destroy, destroy. Brian, I need your genius, your expertise on this. You're complimented by that.

correct? So then I give you my draft triple spaced and then I sit and I eagerly wait for it to become more accurate. Why can't I bring that energy to meeting somebody new or even better meeting somebody or getting ready to engage with someone I've known for a while but it's because I've written a story about them that I'm completely convinced is correct and I have printed out that story in six point single spaced font.

because there's no room for edits, I am correct. But there's no room for curiosity there. I'm not honoring the other person or their expertise because I'm so convinced I'm correct. But what shifts isn't the other person, it's me and the level of curiosity and respect I'm giving the other person. Can we get better at that?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:03)

So it's almost like the lean in to things as opposed to. Lean out, I think I'm I'm tracking with what you're saying here.

Jess Pettitt (07:09)

just

not even looking, right? So before you hit record, we were making jokes about queso, right? Like both of us are from Texas, but we're both from very different parts of Texas. So we have a story about where we both grew up that I can be like, what was it like for you in San Antonio, right? Or I can be like,

Yeah, I don't like your queso. Right? So, even though.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:33)

You

I love that you mentioned this because

for you listening, I want you to know that Jess totally threw me a curve ball with that because I always just described that I could take a bath in queso. I love cheese and Jess is a cheese lover too. And so then she said, well, where are you from though? And it never occurred to me in my life that where I'm from would dictate what kind of queso lover I am.

And what I love is this leads right into what you just said, which is you immediately thought about where the queso is from dictates the quality of the person that's eating it. And I never even thought of that.

Jess Pettitt (08:10)

Right,

because you're a better person than me. Thank you, thank you very much. so, but like, this is such a good example. I know it sounds like we're kind of doing crazy things, but like, if you take something that you're familiar with and assume that everyone else is talking about exactly the same thing, you're not being curious, right? Now I know exactly what the queso is that you could totally like marinate me in. I know exactly where it is. I even know what restaurant it's from.

And the highest compliment is that I waited tables there and I would still eat their queso. That is a very big compliment. That's a big compliment. But then I also am aware that I have traveled and I have had other items made with similar ingredients that they're calling queso. They're wrong. That is not queso. That's a cheese dip, right? But...

Brian Nelson-Palmer (08:43)

That is a big compliment. Okay.

Jess Pettitt (08:59)

What is important is, is that I'm curious enough to try the different things and I can decide what I like and what I don't like. The curiosity is really important. Now, what does this have to do with productivity? Is that it's not about always a hundred percent of the time being right. Although in the case of case, so I am right in other cases, I can be a little bit more flexible, right? If.

As someone from Texas, Brian, at least you're referencing Texan queso. You live in Florida now. If you had named some kind of Florida queso, no, that's no sir. That's wrong, no, false, right? So we can agree on Texas, but then inside Texas, we can disagree with each other. And if we're talking about...

Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:35)

Now, yeah.

Yeah.

Jess Pettitt (09:46)

building teams, building relationships, like being able to get over our perfectionism or entitlements, it's being able to do both of those at the same time. I'll take Florida with you any day, but I'm gonna win over San Antonio.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:00)

Right, and you know what comes to mind as you're saying this too, is it almost sounds like one of the practical things would be to lead with a question in in situations where you disagree with someone instead of just that's wrong. Maybe it's tell me my favorite phrase is tell me more by the way if you don't have tell me more in your list of tools, please add it.

because whenever you disagree with someone and you don't know what to say, or you think that they're wrong, instead of saying you don't know what to say, or you think that you're wrong, insert, tell me more. Because then it gives, you a chance to recalibrate because reacting wrong can cost you in the workplace. But the other thing is it gives you more context and more clues as to why Dallas Queso is gonna be more important or Plano Queso.

than San Antonio, Queso. so it's that, tell me more or something like that, leading with questions, being open to the differences are ultimately gonna help you move past the things that would have held you up before, I think.

Jess Pettitt (11:01)

completely agree and I know that you love it when people disagree with you, but this one you are spot on and it's because the ability to recalibrate by asking a question, you cannot be anxious and curious at the same time. And so when I ask you, wait a minute, what kind of case are we talking about here? Right? I am holding on to my bias, but I'm also leaving room to find out what are you talking about? Now, how fun would it have been

If you living in Florida, me living in California right now. So basically what we're, what we are fighting over is Tex-Mex and the Venn diagram of actual Mexican food and probably like Southern barbecue. That Venn diagram situation is the complication of what is the many complexities of queso. Right. We agree. love cheese.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (11:49)

Yes.

Jess Pettitt (11:49)

And so

I think a lot of times what happens is people feel like you're not supposed to get into the nuances about queso. You're supposed to just be able to find this happy middle ground of mediocre. Sure. We both like cheese and I would rather live in the knowledge that you have a different experience than me and I have a different experience than you. Now let's talk about it because I love curiosity.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:13)

Yeah.

Jess Pettitt (12:15)

and curiosity is that real connection, but I learned it to what you said, Brian, is because I am a judgmental jerk that constantly needs to recalibrate. And I always tell people, like, if you have one actionable item you need to do, it is to ask a question that you do not know the answer to, because you will realize how transactional your communication is. Because most of us, if we ask questions, we ask questions we already know the answer to.

That's not a conversation. That's just filling space. But by asking questions, you do another answer. So you have to listen. That forces you to be curious and to like recalibrate and calm down and maybe find out some other new version of a cheese product.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:58)

So true. You know what comes to mind too is in the early part of my career, I beat you. I'm flashing back to what you said earlier about that, like 80 % done is better than perfect and that idea. And this comes up in workplace conversations too, where you're debating who's right or not. And the whole time you're having that debate, you are holding yourself back from done because now you just have to debate it. And what's interesting is

A lot of the times you're disagreeing. Let's stop debating and get to done. And so that that idea of needing to be right.

The reason this is so personal to me is that when I started my career, I was one of those straight A students so I knew the answers. And so if I knew the answer and somebody was wrong, I felt like I should help them get to write. And what I learned quickly is that. unless they're being wrong is going to cost the organization a lot of money.

if there's going to be a negative consequence for them being wrong, then, OK, you should probably speak up and say something. But the reality is, if there's room for both of you to have two different opinions and you're still going to get the work done and move on, that's that's way better and more productive to just let it be different and keep going.

Jess Pettitt (14:11)

the key words you just said there is you can minimize the difference of opinions and focus on, okay, that's good to know, and then move along without minimizing the value of that person's humanity. People can have different opinions. I do not believe that there is more than one kind of moral center. I am not a moral relativist.

There is a clear right and there is a clear wrong. And much to your point, if you're not doing something that's causing harm to someone else, now we're just talking about nuances. know, which Hank Williams is better? Obviously the original, right? But it's hard to find some of those songs because of how like music quality and recordings work and it's really old, right? So like,

I really like me some twangy country. And if I tell somebody that I really like original Hank Williams the best, there are new artists that I could find out about that are just as twangy as original Hank Williams. And now I'm being exposed to new things because I'm open and interested and curious to new music.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (15:18)

Totally. And I, what's funny is you said that and I just, this is the experience that I've had using AI recently, sometimes too, is sometimes I, I've got a copy of an email and I'm like, okay, I could probably word this a little better. Let me drop it into one of these AI tools like chat GPT and have it help me reword this thing and see what it says. And then it comes back with some ideas that were like, whoa.

that's a that's a really good idea. That's a much better way to say it. And so it helped you level up a little bit, but you had to be open to instead of doing it your own way. You asked for input. And in this case, it was input from a computer, but it could be input from a co-worker or input from a boss like there's value in those differing opinions, too. Yeah.

Jess Pettitt (16:00)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Wouldn't it be boring

if everybody just agreed with us?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:05)

Can you share a compelling example of how a difficult conversation when handled well can dramatically improve a teams effectiveness?

Jess Pettitt (16:15)

I use this story actually quite a lot in that I was working with a car dealership and the car dealership had this big mural like we are all one family. So they brought me in because unrelated, but the number one salesperson

and the number one mechanic all of sudden weren't working as productively. And the owner of the dealership noticed this and was really nervous that something was happening on like a workplace culture level. And before a third person stopped being as productive as they were, wanted me to come in and like find out what happened, nip it in the bud so that there isn't a third and possibly figure out what happened to these two people.

so that they could get back to being as productive as they were. So I did, you know, my listening sessions and things like that. I was paying attention and hanging out in the dealership and I did my individual one-on-ones with the two people, but I did it with every employee so that they didn't feel like singled out or whatever. Well, it turns out that these two individuals were secretly going through chemotherapy and they were so worried that they were going to appear unproductive.

that they didn't want the chemotherapy to impact their job, so they didn't want to tell anybody. But it was like a self-fulfilling prophecy because by not telling anybody, knew why something was different. And so with permission, I asked each individual person, one, if I could introduce them to each other so that they could support each other while they're going through chemotherapy. It's a small town, they're in the same hospital.

So I did that and then in a joint meeting I asked them you should really tell your boss And I'm happy to help I'm happy to facilitate this but like I understand your motivations and I want those to be represented. I don't want those to be minimized and it is impacting your job and not telling people is impacting not only your productivity but your role and how it's being perceived within this team. So even if you make it through chemotherapy

I am afraid that it's not gonna be repairable unless people know what's going on. So we had a conversation with the boss and within that day, they had ride share plans, they had meals being prepared, everybody stepped up to support. And what was so powerful to me was the boss had a meeting like that same week and I was sitting in the back and the boss said, we are going through chemotherapy.

Right? Like that's a little bit extra. It's asterisk other duties assigned, but like, imagine the healing space of being transparent and allowing yourself to be supported and other people not feeling so burdened by like, what is going on with Jeff? Like I have to do all this extra stuff spontaneously. I am now very excited to do their extra stuff.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:41)

Yeah.

Jess Pettitt (19:05)

but also extra, extra stuff to be supportive. Cause we, our family wasn't just a mural. It really was the culture of the organization. So sales actually went up. The mechanic records, like being able to repair cars actually went up. And after both people went through their full chemotherapy and are still in remission, I actually still talk to them. The, the productivity level was

tested because the theory, the culture was tested and they all stepped up to the plate to we are one family and that we were going through chemotherapy. That is not a work related conversation, right? Like HR could very easily support not talking about your medical needs in an open way at work. And there are just to be clear, there are tons of environments where this would not work and you get to pick and choose what you want to share at work. I'm not.

Don't come for me. Don't come for Brian. In this case, in this case, though, the love and respect that was required in order to be able to function inside of this dealership, the culture of the organization supported them. And these two men believe cured them of cancer.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:00)

Yeah.

Jess Pettitt (20:17)

I mean, some people would call that pretty productive.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:18)

powerful.

Absolutely. And, you know, it's interesting because it it kind of leads back to a couple of the points that we were making, which is lead with a question. And I think it's powerful that that leadership, that car dealership boss called you in to find out more. And now I'm curious, Jess, if if that do you think that guy had he?

Ask the question had he named it like often sign. They say name what you're seeing and ask about it. So I'm seeing a little bit of you know, drop in your productivity compared to normal. Is there something going on? What's going on? Do you think if he would have asked that would one or both of them? Shared, do you think or? I mean, I'm kind of asking you to not brag about yourself or brag about yourself. I know this is kind of a tough spot, but like do you think that would have worked or?

What are your thoughts?

Jess Pettitt (21:09)

actually think that it was the other way around. Like, obviously I wasn't there yet because I hadn't been hired. I think the supervisor trusted his instincts. I would, I wouldn't guess that he asked. He might have fished versus asked, like check in with coworkers, like what's going on over here? I guess it might not have been direct because it was really surprising. But the real problem...

Brian Nelson-Palmer (21:20)

Okay.

True. Yeah.

Yeah.

Jess Pettitt (21:34)

not to blame the victim, whereas the two people going through chemotherapy came up with a million reasons to cover because they thought it worked. They thought they were being successful by talking about the tech system that is being used to track sales that is backed up instead of like, I'm going through chemotherapy, right? But also, you're taking longer lunches.

Like, it's like you're physically not in the building. That's not technology. That's, you know, that's not a software update. but frankly, people don't have hard conversations and it's very hard to have personal conversations inside of a professional setting. Just like it's hard to have professional conversations inside of a personal setting. but in this particular case, I think that I'm not going to say they were lying.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (22:08)

Right.

Jess Pettitt (22:25)

But I think they had the two patients in this case had convinced themselves that it was working. And they were doing it to protect, to protect everyone else on the team and they were wrong and their motivation was endearing. So then how do you break through that? And honestly, the dealership owner didn't know. And so then to be vulnerable enough to and generous enough

He was so scared of a third case and his leadership scales might have failed two people. He didn't want to fail a third and not just from a profit place, but because he really legitimately cared about everyone. So he called in an outsider.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (23:07)

Yeah.

Now this it's interesting. We're talking about some of these tough conversations now and I noticed that you have a three part framework for taking responsibility in conversations. Could you kind of walk us through what is that three part framework How can, how can they start like applying it? Can you walk us through that?

Jess Pettitt (23:26)

so

the basic principle is the image is a three-seater bicycle, right? So if you imagine a three-seater bicycle, all three people have to be pedaling, right? Like, yes, technically one is in the front, one is in the middle, and one is in the back, but all three are pedaling. So all three variables, there's not an order. It's not like first you have to do this, second you have to do this, third you have to do this. You have to do all three at the same time.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (23:49)

Yeah.

Okay.

Jess Pettitt (23:50)

And depending on your culture within your organization, even if we were to look at productivity, falls into all three of them. Generally speaking, your workplace culture is going to really like one, maybe two of them, and then totally ignore the other one unless there's a crisis or it's urgent. So one of them is preparation. So a lot of organizations and people will get very stuck in preparation. So it's policies and protocols and

trainings and like if this were to happen what would we do binders that kind of stuff but when Bleepity Bleep hits the fan most people don't hold on there's a tab for this right like so we don't necessarily like use that but we can get stuck in preparation mode the other one is the the gentle nuance between reacting

Brian Nelson-Palmer (24:29)

you

Jess Pettitt (24:42)

kind of almost even habitually and like an informed response about what it is that we're gonna do. So if we go back to the car dealership, a reaction might've been to fire these two people. Imagine firing two people going through chemotherapy, they would lose insurance. That would be pretty bad news, right? So, but a reaction like this is what our policies and protocols tell us to do. So that I guess we'll just fire them because they didn't meet their numbers. That's what it says to do.

But to be able to respond thoughtfully is looking at the tools, you know, that you have, and then making a choice about whether or not to use them. And so, and if we keep with the car dealership, the car dealership owner could have fired them, but didn't and instead made a more informed response of maybe something is going on here. So before I just do what I'm used to doing,

Is there something I can do that's more intentional and in line with the ultimate mission of the dealership was we are a family. What would a family do? A family wouldn't necessarily just ex-communicate somebody because something's going on. Some families do, but how do we, how do we do like an intervention, right? So respond and preparation are usually the two that people kind of navigate.

But the third one is being able to recognize a problem that you don't experience. So again, the car dealership has HR policies and could have done all kinds of things. They called it an outside consultant, but the real thing is, that they were, they were able to recognize something had happened and that it may impact other people that hadn't. It hadn't impacted yet. So they recognized a problem they couldn't name. couldn't experience.

A lot of times these are like the empaths that we work with where someone might report like something's going on. And unless you can identify what it is, it's not being paid attention to an HR. Even if 10 people say, I don't know what it is, but something's going on. Right. how are you brave enough to recognize something that you don't experience without getting dismissed, without getting defensive, without.

thinking that person's nuts and they're just complaining, but really noticing those patterns. And then how do those patterns filter through your preparation and your reaction habits so that you can respond more informed? Those are the three seats at the same time. Prepare, recognize, respond.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:05)

Then there is a the other side to this and I think about you know my time as a supervisor and my time and HR and all that stuff. Oftentimes when we get to some of those scenarios, it's all about being fair, right? You didn't treat this situation. This person was going through a tough time and you hired a consultant, but this person was going through a tough time and you fired them or so.

There is a, think people oftenly are driven to no action because they are afraid of that scenario where they took an action and that ultimately resulted in now it's a lawsuit or some crazy thing like that. So can you talk about like the framework and also that situation on like, do you, or do you have any thoughts or advice for that person who might be driven to not do something because of fear of repercussions or something?

Jess Pettitt (27:53)

Yeah, stuff's complicated.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:55)

You

Jess Pettitt (27:56)

I mean, that's it, right? Like, you know, OJ Simpson was not found guilty of murder. OJ Simpson was found guilty of tax evasion. Is that karma? I don't know, maybe. Maybe he was guilty of both. Maybe he was innocent of both, because the justice system isn't perfect.

We are fearful because we are trying to win or make someone else lose, or we're trying to be right and make somebody else wrong. Okay. That is human behavior. Great. If we're actually trying to have a conversation that matters, it's about elevating humanity and not being right or winning. And it's our responsibility in my opinion to notice if I am trying to win here.

or I'm really just trying to point out that they're wrong. Those feel really good, right? But it's communicating from your ego or communicating from a place of humility. And it's hard to make that choice. So sometimes we think doing nothing is better or safer. Neutrality is never neutral. The choosing to do nothing is a response. And generally speaking, it is not going to support the weakest

variable. It's not protecting the people who are in the most harm. It's protecting yourself. And perhaps there are times where that is a justifiable choice. If you do that all the time, maybe I would like lean into questioning why that is.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:19)

Yeah, that makes sense. what are the specific phrases or approaches that people should avoid in difficult conversations and what should they say instead to sort of maintain the productivity of the team, the organization, the people, any thoughts?

Jess Pettitt (29:35)

conversation.

Well, I'll save people a copay for a marriage therapist. And if your sentence says something like this never happens, or this always happens, you're probably going to get in a fight.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:47)

True story.

Jess Pettitt (29:48)

Right? Sentences that begin.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:50)

Oh my God,

preach, preach. I'm sorry. I don't mean to interrupt you just but man, preach the always and never thing will get you every listen to Jess, please channel what she just said, please, because oh my gosh, every time I have an always and never conversation with my wife, it turns into a fight. So true. Like, don't say it. Just state what you observed. We don't have to clarify if it's always or never. You can just say what you oh my God, I just you plucked my heartstrings there, Jess.

Jess Pettitt (29:54)

Ha.

Right. Well, and you just said every time. it's probably not every time. So every, every always never, right. Like those are usually words are being invoked because there are some feelings hurt. Usually you're trying to escalate your language because you're not feeling heard or understood. And that is probably not going to end pretty.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:20)

Yes

Probably not. fighting words fighting words

Jess Pettitt (30:44)

Right? Sentences that begin with the word actually, you're probably mansplaining something.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:52)

Okay.

Jess Pettitt (30:53)

Right. And I'm going to

point out women can mansplain. is men are not the only people who mansplain. If you are explaining something to someone who did not ask for clarification.

Why are you doing that? Often you are doing that because you want to be the smartest person in the room and you very easily could be talking to the person who invented the thing that you're explaining. So if it starts with the word actually, maybe, maybe don't say that sentence. Otherwise, I am really kind of apprehensive to say like use these words, don't use these words.

especially if we're talking about identities or descriptions of selves or who we are and who we aren't because language changes and evolves so quickly, it's almost impossible. Obviously there are racial slurs and really divisive, loaded language that maybe you shouldn't use, but even those have context. So as a queer person,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:45)

Yeah.

Jess Pettitt (31:51)

Some context, even using the word queer to describe myself is somehow offensive. The word I would use to actually describe myself, I can't even type into a lesbian Facebook group because they flag it as an offensive term, but I'm using this term to describe myself, right? But the term, I'm not gonna say I don't want you to get in trouble, but it's also a thing that floats in water, right?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:12)

huh.

Jess Pettitt (32:17)

But if I describe myself as the thing that floats in water, to me it's a very empowering term. It has a history. I've reclaimed that history and like there is not a chance that I am heterosexual. I love this word. There's like a political edge to it. It makes me very happy. However, if I am in public and somebody says, that's a...

and they use the word that I use to describe myself. I'm going to question their motivations and it's going to feel targeted. Same word and it's a word that makes me feel very powerful that is also not allowed to be used in Facebook groups. Language is complicated and if we go back to curiosity instead of anxiousness, then we can find out what words people like to use for themselves and then use those.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (33:04)

Big time. I want to go back to what you said about actually and using the word actually the thought when you said that the thought that immediately came to my mind is feedback, right? And so oftentimes you will start providing feedback when somebody doesn't ask for it. And for me, I generally do not provide feedback unless someone asks for it. Or like I said, unless there is going to be damage to the organization,

So for example, if somebody gave a presentation and it wasn't a home run, but it wasn't terrible I'm not going to offer them feedback on it. If it was just to coworkers in an environment where it didn't, it didn't affect the organization. However, if they're preparing to present to a client or a customer or somebody and there, and it's,

there are opportunities there. I would then find a way to bring that up. So it's the it's the feedback conundrum. So I'm curious with the with the actually thing. It led me down this mental side path. So I want to ask you that just what what are your thoughts on? That's my impression of feedback is feedback should be only given if it's asked for unless there is a repercussion for you not giving it and then that then you should share it.

you have any thoughts on that?

Jess Pettitt (34:16)

I have thoughts on that and the the dangerous thing that you left out so I guess maybe this is as close to me disagreeing with you as I've gotten so far but who says that I think you're qualified to give me feedback?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:28)

Ooh, you win. Yep. Ooh, that's I totally left out that part. Yes.

Jess Pettitt (34:31)

Right? Right.

So like, if you think it's going to damage the organization that entitles you to give me feedback. Who are you? Right? Now, you are a professional speaker who's an expert in this particular area who's very invested in the organization. But what if I don't know that about you?

Right? So, for example, the other day someone shared with me a draft of their book they want to publish. We were just talking online. They're writing a book. was like, wow, I'd love to read your book. And, you know, that's like a nice thing you say. So then they said, do you want me to send you a copy of it? And so I said, do you want me to read it?

Like we just started at the basics and they were like, it's funny, no one's ever asked that before. I was like, I've sent, so we'll take like videos of my keynote, right? Like I've sent copies of my keynote to a lot of people and I really wanted them to watch it. And I don't know if they do or if they don't, cause I never hear anything again. So it's just like points of vulnerability splatter painted out into the world that hopefully somebody will watch it. And then when someone finally does and they're like, yeah, that was great.

That's not helpful because now I'm vulnerable and annoyed, but I sent it to people that I really wanted feedback from. So you are welcome to send me this book. I don't know what you mean by book. How long is this book? Do I want to read this? What is this book about? Is it the history of like thumbtacks? Right? Cause I would read that book in a heartbeat. Who came up with this idea? I want

Right? Is it something I don't want to read? Right? Is it like a sci-fi fantasy book about vampire pirates? No offense to people who that that's their jam. That's not my jam. I do not want to read about vampire pirates. So, they gave me, they were like, well, there's three parts that I actually think would be really interesting for you to read.

I am happy to read three chapters out of context knowing nothing else about the books even if it is vampire pirates So I read the three chapters and this person does an excellent job of describing food. It made me very hungry It's very pretty lots of textures and there was a big vocabulary and there was so many metaphors and similes That I had to grab a pin

to like map out what are we still talking about? So I wrote, I read the three chapters and I was like, okay, PS, I have read the three chapters. Now my question is, what kind of feedback do you want? And they're like, oh, well just overall. And I'm like, nope, we are not playing that game. Overall, it is written in English and I was able to read it, check. Right, now then we got into a conversation. I am a writer.

Right? I've published 15 books. All of my books have been nonfiction. This is fiction. I don't read fiction. And if I do read fiction, I read mystery novels that are like, you know, authors who've written 75 of them. So they're very consumable. Now we know who I am and I've read it. So then they were like high level. What did you like? So then I said, I really like your food descriptions.

That is how you would, that's a productive way of giving feedback. So then they were like, well, what about this part? And I was like, didn't even notice that part. And they're like, you didn't notice that part. That's my favorite part. And I was like, same thing happens to me in speeches all the time. The part that I like, they don't even remember. But the part that he's referencing got lost in metaphors and similes. But now we're getting closer to that. I know this is way too long of an answer, but like, do you see how slowed down it got?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (37:48)

Hahaha

Jess Pettitt (38:00)

So then he's like, why didn't you notice this part? I was like, what chapter is that thing in? So then we went and I was like, oh yeah, this is when I had to pick up my pin. And he's like, what does that mean? And I was like, it was so dense in mixed metaphors, similes and large vocabulary words. I couldn't keep track of what happened.

That is very helpful feedback in a paragraph inside of a chapter that I would never have been able to get to or have it be heard had I not started back up at the top.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:34)

But at the same time, I do love that we stepped into the feedback because I feel like that's really true. But the tag end of this is also consider like it's who are you to provide that feedback? And it's also would the person providing the feedback be valuable to you?

So in the circling back to in the workplace now, if it's a supervisor or a potential client or somebody whose feedback

would help you be better at what you're trying to get at, that might be good feedback, but not all the feedback you get should be feedback that you act on necessarily, except for maybe you're the boss in a performance review or something.

Jess Pettitt (39:13)

It also needs to be in the style in which they are going to hear it. Right? So if, if I am, I just just happened with another client, I am a direct aggressive communicator. If there is an understatement on this podcast, that, that, would be it. And there are times where direct aggressive ways of communicating is not appropriate.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (39:36)

Yes.

Jess Pettitt (39:36)

And

so the example that I use, cause I use myself as example all the time, if I find a lost kid in a parking lot, I can't walk up to that kid and be like, yo danger, what are you doing standing in middle a parking lot? I can't do that. That's ineffective. Right now it might work, but I'm going to make some assumptions and some judgments. I'm not super good with kids, but like a lost kid might be a little fragile. Right? So I might start with like,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (40:01)

Yeah.

Jess Pettitt (40:03)

Ninja Turtles, I love them. Where did you get that backpack? Right? Like, do you need any assistance? Perhaps you're looking for like an adult. How can I help you? Why are you standing in the middle of the parking lot? Right? Like I'm going to soften it and start more indirect because it's more successful in that situation. I have more communication training than the kid lost in the parking lot.

If you're giving feedback, if you're a supervisor, if we're talking about productivity, just because you're talking to another adult does not mean that the power dynamics are equal and you can use your own power dynamics to adjust to how that person is going to better retain the information or the feedback. Once you have determined what kind are you useful to them and do they see you as someone that was worthy of giving them the feedback in the first place?

then you can adjust how you're going to do that so that it's heard and it's respectful and where it's coming from. Then the next piece is like, how are we going to work on this together? Right. But most people skip that part.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:05)

Yeah, very true. Well, Jess, what's the most important takeaway that you hope the person listening will implement after they listen to us today? What comes to mind?

Jess Pettitt (41:15)

my

mantra is to do the best you can with what you've got some of the time. That's literally the definition of good enough now is to do the best you can with what you've got some of the time. Sometimes you're like in there and you're like, this is a mess.

And this is truly the best I can do in this given situation.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:34)

that. If just last question for you is what does this mean to you personally?

Jess Pettitt (41:39)

I, number one, have no other monetizable skill. Capitalism is real. I mean, that's the truthful, honest answer. The only other thing that I can do that is remotely impressive is fold a fitted sheet. And that's not monetizable because I'm pretty sure robots do it. Yeah. The other thing is that

Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:44)

haha

Sorry.

Jess Pettitt (41:58)

The problems that I work on probably aren't going to get solved in my lifetime. And doing the right thing, even though it doesn't work, doesn't make it the wrong thing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (42:06)

Yeah. Are you can I ask a totally separate tangent here, but in the current environment like you kind of operate in the diversity, equity and inclusion space and right now in the country, it's not where we're kind of going. There's a there's a negative energy toward that right now. I was just curious if you've noticed a pickup or has things dropped off or picked up for you in that?

Jess Pettitt (42:27)

Yes. So federal work dropped to nothing, like absolutely nothing, including contracts that were already signed and we might've been in the middle of them, gone. And the offices I was working with no longer exist and the people working in them, they don't work there anymore. So fascinating. And specifically as a white person who is like a

fat older woman who uses comedy. I am a very comforting container compared to other visual people. So I am also getting work that I probably am getting because I am a more like palatable container to have hard conversations with. So a little bit of both.

friends of mine, specifically other DEI people of color, but also speakers of color who don't even speak on diversity issues, they're losing work. And when we were talking about it, was like, this is when we really, like we say, we specter elders, right? Is that I've done this through Bush, the eight years of Obama, the backlash was probably the hardest time I will experience. And I did this through COVID and Trump 1.0. Like there are people who are doubling down. I definitely still have a job.

And there are people who are using this as an excuse to no longer have to do what they didn't really care about doing in the first place. And so I don't know that that's terrible that they're quitting their performative things. But I'm I'm busy for sure.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (43:50)

Got it.

That is, I'm encouraged to hear that, Jess. I am encouraged to hear that. And selfishly, and for you listening, I'm sorry for the total tangent there. I probably could have waited until after I hit the stop button to ask her that. But still, I was just curious. And for everybody, that's encouraging to hear that it's only a portion. It's not everybody. This isn't something that's suddenly going away just because we stopped looking at it.

Jess Pettitt (44:15)

Yeah, I mean,

we've changed the language. I mean, if we go back to the 1900s, we called this concepts like multiculturalism and we don't use that word anymore. Right. So it's just language evolving. It's the same work. I think because I work primarily with conservative audiences, which might surprise people. don't know. Owners of dealerships are not usually the most liberal people in the world, but I work with very conservative people and I take it as a real honor.

to specifically in this political climate to be able to help bridge the polarizing gaps. Because we need to get back to work, right? I believe that capitalism, Christianity and white supremacy are at the center

of systems of oppression and I by myself do not know how to dismantle capitalism, Christianity, and white supremacy. So what I want to do is work within those systems so that we can get along better and we can have conversations that matter

And I don't know what else to do other than that. So let's get to work.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (45:15)

Let's get to work. Well, Jess, here's what I love. I love that you have embraced yourself and the way that you are. And there's a level of comfort talking to you with I am who I am and this is who I am. And I don't believe that, like if I met you in person or if you listening that her in person, you would be any different whether you're on the stage or off the stage or ran it met in the street or there's something about the real talk. I really love the real talk that

you bring to the table about all of this and the knowledge from all of the books and everything.

and also FYI talk about your book almost doing good.

Jess Pettitt (45:49)

Yeah,

Almost Doing Good came out in October and it is mostly for organizations to be able to figure out what they stand for and whatever that is, how can they double down on what they stand for to prepare for disruption or uncertainty.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (46:05)

Absolutely. Well, check out the book and any one of Jess's books. I've of course in the links to this episode, you're going to find that I'm going to drop all of this helpful information along with that book and information about Jess so you can connect with her. And for those folks who want to keep in touch with you, where should they go?

Jess Pettitt (46:20)

No one can spell my name, even though you spelled it right. So justpedit.com too many T's inside of a seven letter last name. So you can go to goodenoughnow.com three words smushed together. Goodenoughnow.com and what I'm online, I, whatever social media platform you use, I'm there either as justpedit or goodenoughnow.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (46:40)

Very good. And for you tuning in, do you have a friend or a colleague who you who you've talked about this topic today about having these conversations that matter and how it's holding things back? Have you ever had those kind of conversations with someone? Does this remind you of someone? And if it does, would you share the link to this episode specifically with them? Because I know that Jess and I would love to know that our conversation today

helped it touched people that are facing this kind of thing. If you text back and forth with a person and you, hey, I I heard this and I thought about you, whatever that text from you would mean more than anything. So please take a second and text somebody. If somebody came to mind, I would love for you to pay it forward and for us to have paid it forward to you to pay it to them. So.

And also I do more than just podcast all the knowledge that I help I share to my email subscribers. So if you're not already on the email list, come join the fun. But more than anything, I love sharing productivity gladiator with you because together these productivity skills are going to change your life. That's a wrap.

Brian Nelson-Palmer
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