Can we be productive at work without ruining our own wellbeing? Jeanette Bronée shares insights gained while recovering from burnout and losing both parents. We discuss tangible ways individuals and leaders can shift perspectives to promote sustainable productivity grounded in humanity and wellbeing.
The Audio/Podcast
Links to References In This Episode
Study from Finland on children, 15 minute break each hour for learning.
Microsoft’s study on why you need breaks between meetings.
Episode Digest
Achieving Balance: Productivity and Wellbeing in Harmony
The perpetual balancing act between workplace demands and personal wellbeing frequently fuels feelings of stress and inadequacy in the modern economy. We aim to seek success in our careers, often convinced we must sacrifice self-care along the way. It leaves professionals endlessly asking—can productivity and wellbeing peacefully coexist?
Fresh perspectives, such as from Jeanette Bronee, reveal achievable ways individuals and organizations can shift limiting attitudes about performance at the expense of health. They highlight small but mighty everyday habits that transform not only individual resilience, but ripple out to impact workplace cultures as a whole.
Reframing Wellness as a Lifelong Practice
An emerging view proposes letting go of thinking about wellness and self-care as a fixed goal, like pounds to shed or boxes to check off a list. Rather, it suggests embracing the ongoing daily relationship with caring for ourselves and listening in closely, without judgment, to what we need in each moment. Contentment comes from accepting our ever-changing state of balance, not upholding perfectionist expectations.
The Restorative Power of Mini-Breaks
Even small, 60-90 second pauses in the frenzied workday to simply breathe, move, or reset, prove powerful. These moments of micro-recovery improve mental clarity, energy renewal and sharper focus to tackle tasks at hand. Skipping our body’s cries for regular respite often backfires by depleting cognitive reserves and performance over time. Think of it, even boxers in the ring get breaks between rounds. Why shouldn’t you between activities?
Cultivating Emotional Wellbeing Accelerates Results
Physical health certainly impacts daily effectiveness, but science shows our emotional states wield equal influence. Feeling valued, seen, and heard has profound effects on motivation, engagement and work fulfillment. Those leading teams see substantially higher performance and retention by encouraging idea exchange and taking time to actively process responses. Fostering emotional health requires enhanced presence and listening—not necessarily extra minutes in the day.
Solutions Emerge by Reframing
Refocusing how we frame problems makes all the difference. When facing roadblocks, ask “What do we need to move forward?” rather than “Why isn’t this working?”. Leading with what IS possible sparks collaborative problem-solving, whereas dwelling on deficiencies fuels frustration. This outward and forward-looking orientation cultivates optimism and belief in our collective ability to handle uncertainties on the horizon.
Scheduling Intentional Transition Time
Back-to-back meetings often zap productivity despite tight scheduling. Agendas benefit from built-in buffers between sessions, allowing participants to solidify takeaways, recharge focus and emotionally transition between topics. Rather than defaulting to 30 or 60 minute blocks, strategically calendar 25 or 50 minute meetings, and hold to those time slots. Guarding 5-10 minutes between commitments grants much needed mental space. If you’re leading the meeting, you can also give everyone 1 minute at the beginning of your meeting, to afford them that time to process. Try taking a moment of silence in your next meeting, see how it works?
Leaders Set the Stage for Cultural Transformation
Individuals certainly own responsibility for self-care habits that enhance resilience. However, organizations seeking lasting change must evolve. Leadership carries responsibility for sowing seeds that gradually transform company culture and assumptions. Simple but consistent practices like starting meetings with one minute of quiet centering or group reflection demonstrates that employee health and humanity matter, not just performance.
In reality, the two aims need not compete—sustainable productivity requires sound wellbeing. By raising awareness and implementing small but consistent changes, both individuals and organizations make progress towards resilient cultures where people energize their best work without depleting inner reserves. What shifts might you experiment with to bring your physical, emotional and cognitive wellbeing into greater harmony this year?
Key Quotes
"We do need to pause more. We need to be able to calm our nervous system down or we basically can't think straight. Um, some people will argue, well, I'm better at it than others. Yes, we all different at it. But if we don't pause throughout the day, if we don't do the, even the basics of water, food, and a couple of pauses and rest here and there, if we don't even do that, there's a good chance that cortisol just keeps rising and rising and rising and rising and rising all throughout the day."
“instead of running around taking care of me, could you come over here and sit down and just talk to me? I wanna know that you care about me. I don't need you to care for me.”
“It may be that they also feeling that they were dismissed in the previous meeting, and then they show up in this meeting and they're like, want to show that they know more because they are not feeling heard and seen.”
Today’s Guest
Jeanette Bronée
Speaker, Culture Strategist, &
Author of “The Self-Care Mindset”
Jeanette is rethinking self-care in the workplace as the foundation for peak performance, engagement, and a culture where people belong and work better together.
As an internationally recognized self-care mindset expert, she has spoken at the United Nations, given keynotes across the US, and spoken to audiences on five continents. She shares the tools to reclaim agency and cultivate the human connection that helps us communicate and collaborate with curiosity and care so that we can navigate challenges, innovate, and grow stronger together in our constantly changing reality.
She gives us the C.A.R.E. driven framework so we can change our relationship with self-care at work in order to be busy and healthy at the same time, cultivating a culture where people create impact and sustainable success together. Her clients include IBM, BlackRock Lockheed Martin, Kaiser Permanente, Genentech, Microsoft, Facebook, ebay, Siemens, and more.
Her new book, “The Self Care Mindset, Rethinking How We Change and Grow, Harness Well Being and Reclaim Work Life Quality” is a book of tools to harness our human advantage to grow through adversity.
Website: jeanettebronee.com
Book: The Selfcare Mindset
Podcast: Pause On This
Blog: jeanettebronee.com/blog
Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/jeanettebronee
Instagram: instagram.com/jeanettebronee
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About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a senior project manager, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. These Gladiators wield email management superpowers, a laser-guided ability to focus, samurai-grade prioritization skills, a sniper-precise task tracking approach, Jedi time management skills, and a secret sauce for maximizing their personal life balance. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat! Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.
Transcript
Brian Nelson-Palmer
I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. And on this show, I talk about life balance and personal practical productivity skills. And in this episode, I have been so excited to talk about this topic because it's about productivity and wellbeing can't coexist or can they? That's the debate and it happens all the time. And with me on the show today is Jeanette Brunet. She's a culture strategist, author, and speaker on this topic. Jeanette, thanks so much for joining me today.
Jeanette Bronée
Thank you for having this conversation. I'm curious to see where we go.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Me too. It's going to be an adventure. I love it. And we're talking about productivity and wellbeing and whether they can coexist. What's your background? How does, how does your background relate to that for the, for the, for you who's listening.
Jeanette Bronée
Well, you know, I learned the hard way after two burnouts that, um, I needed to put wellbeing at the core of how I work. And, um, looking at it from a perspective that saying we don't have to choose between being successful and productive and reaching our goals or having our health, and I was like, something's wrong here if we have to choose between that. And it was also at the back end of
You know, I had lost both my parents to cancer a year apart. I had burned out twice. I was in the fashion industry. And I was told it was only a matter of when I was gonna get cancer too. And I was like, something's gotta change. And I've always been really ambitious. I've always wanted to grow and work hard and do all those things, but how I was doing it wasn't working. And so after I got that message, I was like, hmm. What do I do here? Like, how do I figure this out? What do I need to learn? And I realized that I needed to not only figure out how to be a teen with my own body, because I need my body to take care of me as much as my body needs me to take care of it. And really recognizing that, I was sort of pulling back out my old mindset from having been a competitive gymnast and being like, oh, wait a minute.
I am the performer. I'm the one that's doing the performing. So how do I integrate wellbeing and productivity or success and all of that? And so I started out on a whole new journey. I left the fashion industry. I went back to school. I started studying functional medicine, nutrition, health and wellbeing. I'd already started mindfulness for many years for my own piece, if you can call it that, but also because of all kinds of other things that happened after I came to America at the age of 26. And so I was starting to integrate all of those things. And I realized that supporting ourselves in reaching our goals is far more important than we realize.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Absolutely. And so it's interesting because like you came, cancer was an indicator for you. For me, I got pulled into this and I'm really motivated by this because I'm a diabetic. And so it's like, it's interesting how health scares and certain scares can sometimes scare people into making some of the changes that they need. So here's hoping that you listening or not checking into this because you just had a health care too. I would love to be proactive. I know Jeanette and I both would love for this to be sort of a proactive conversation about how do we head this off now? Verk was having to wait until that moment. Oh man, for sure. And you know, Jeanette, when people, there's a lot of folks that talk about this topic. So one thing that I always love to ask, and I'm curious for you is what would you say makes you different from other folks who talk about, you know, this topic or wellbeing or productivity and that kind of thing?
Jeanette Bronée
I think one of the things that's important is that we don't think of well-being as a destination. It's not a goal that we reach. We tend to do that. We tend to look at it from the outside in. We tend to look at it as I need to lose certain amount of weight. I need to, you know, all of these goals that we have as if well-being and health is a checklist of like, okay, that means I'm okay.
And then instead realizing that it's a lot more about how we feel every single day. And we're not going to feel optimally every single day. And so really allowing, um, well-being to be part of our lives in a way that feels a little bit more, I don't know, like a, like a normal relationship, not one where we're like beating ourselves up because we're not doing enough. We're not at the gym enough. And, and I think it's a lot this. Like, I think the industry of self-care and health and wellbeing has done a disservice in a way to the humans that are the ones who need it, by making it really not only something we do after work and for many people self-care has become, especially lately, the thing we do to recover after work. And I think since the pandemic, we started shifting that relationship with self-care a little bit but we're not there yet. We're still thinking of it as almost like a treat and something that people who have money and time will do. Hence why we think that it won't fit in with productivity. Right, it's very often like, well, you know, you have to be in a gym, you have to do, like, it's so, it feels like we just need to demystify self-care and bring it down to a very human relationship level.
I don't know, did I answer your question? I think I carried on here, but.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
I mean, I feel like you drew right into the topic. I'm excited to get into it as well. I was just kind of curious on what makes you different. It sounds like you were saying.
Jeanette Bronée
Oh, that makes me different. Yes. What makes me different is that, you know, I think the fact that I have been a competitive gymnast since I was six years old and I grew up learning to have a relationship with my body in a way that I didn't, that I took it for granted, right? I took my body for granted because it was, it was doing what it needed to do. It was performing and so on and so forth. And I was training and I was doing all these things.
And yet at the same time too, I also knew that I was using my body to achieve the results that I was trying to get. And I was on this competitive team from what six years old till about what 18 or something. So that was, there was a big part of my upbringing. So I think that I'm very, um, sort of aware that, um, between that and then burnout and seeing my parents from cancer, that it's not just about knowing what to do. And, you know, at first, when I went back to school to study, it was like, you know, I just need to find out what, what I need to tell people to do and they'll do it. I was like, yeah, that's not how it works.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Not even a little bit. If they could take a pill, everybody would be on that pill. It'd be fine.
Jeanette Bronée
That's just not how it works. Right? It really isn't. And even though people come and say, I'm so confused. I don't know what to do. Tell me what to do and I'll do it. I was like, okay, I'll tell you what to do. And then when you come back next time, we'll talk about why you didn't do it. But then we'll take it one step at a time. Right? And like, I always knew that was.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Ha ha.
I feel like this is one of those coach memes or something, which is the it's like I'm imagining like a comic strip where it's like the person says, tell me what to do and I'll do it. And then the coach says, here, I'll tell you what to do. And then the next time, the and every other session after that is, okay, why didn't you do it? And why didn't you do it? This is well being I was totally why we're talking about this. Absolutely.
Jeanette Bronée
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what I saw consistently was that people said, I got busy at work. I got busy at work. So what I realized was we need to completely rethink our relationship with self care, with work, with others. And I was diving deeper into it and I realized we have three core relationships. The one we have with self, the one we have with others and the one we have with work. And they are always at play. It's not either or. And so what we often think of is that we need to do this at this time, do this at that time, do this at that time, right? We're trying to separate things out. And we saw that a lot during COVID as well, the people like, I need separation from things, but I live at work and I work at home, you know? And so...
I think rethinking and recognizing that we're really in a continuous relationship all the time with self, others and work and will always affect our choices. So if we can really look at it from that different mindset and I don't know, I'm told that most people don't think of it that way when they talk about well-being. They don't talk about it as much as I do as much more of a relationship we have including with others.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
So, you know, it sounds like we're, we've been talking a little bit about you. Let's dive into our topic. Cause I think it feeds right into what you were just saying, which is, so I, what I want to do is I want to look at this through a lens. Well, first I want to clarify. So when we think about, we're talking about productivity and wellbeing. And so we should set the stage. When I was thinking about this, I was thinking productivity as being productive at work.
I thought about wellbeing as what you and your body and yourself needs as a human being. That's how I was thinking it. Is that track with you too, Jeanette? Okay. So when we talk about this, then I want to talk about it first from the, from the person who is an employee, who is a worker. And then I want to talk about it from the perspective of a supervisor who now has a team underneath them of some size. So let's start for personally when it talks about productivity and wellbeing can't coexist or can they? What, how do you say, what would your, what's your advice to that person for themselves on this?
Jeanette Bronée
First, I want to say we're all different, right? We all need different things at different times. That's point one in well-being is that there is no one formula and we just follow that and there we are. We achieve well-being. So that's the one thing that I want to make sure that it's not a one size fits all, but rather it's a relationship we have with ourselves where we learn to listen and be like, hey, how am I doing in there right now? And what do I need right now so that I can whatever it is I need to do.
I think a lot of times I've been working with a lot of people that have been frontline workers, hospital workers, and so on and so forth, especially during the pandemic. And, and there was such a pressure on people to just be on all the time. And so I think in, in that scenario, it's a lot harder to think of wellbeing as a goal itself. And I think we really have to look at it as part of who we are. And that there is a lower wellbeing, better wellbeing, higher wellbeing, but there's always wellbeing.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Yes, it's more of a spectrum. It's not a pass-fail. Totally.
Jeanette Bronée
Right? And so we can have, oh, my wellbeing is pretty low today. You know, and then we're a little bit more leaning in to say, I need to take some more pauses or I need to make sure I get my lunch break today or I need to, like there's some small things that we can do. There's some really small things we can do to support ourselves because part of our wellbeing is our energy and focus and the ability to manage our attention, right? That's part of what wellbeing is. That's.
Kind of like that sort of mindset of mental wellbeing, if you can call it that, not the category of stress and breaking down or mental illness or stuff like that, but there's a mental health aspect that's with us or not all the time, right? It's like, it's again, it's a range. Am I foggy or am I clear? Am I tired or am I energized? Am I able to focus or not?
And so I think if we can start looking at it as that, we can become more granular about it. And then we have an emotional wellbeing that is about how we feel seen and heard, how we engage with others, right? And so that is actually, and that's what I found out when I was working with people, that actually is much more important, much more important for our wellbeing than anything else. It's feeling that we're not going it alone, that people listen to us, that they care about us, and that we are in a space where we matter. And so that doesn't cost time. It costs attention, but it doesn't actually cost time. So in that place, we can do something, but we need to do it together, right? So the individual can't really do that except patting themselves on the shoulder and saying, I'm okay, even if other people can't see me. So this is where the critical point of culture comes in.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
So with what you've said so far, I mean, we're describing kind of the concept and how it works. But what what's what do people do? What should they do to make sure they're kind of following what you said and addressing? What do you think?
Jeanette Bronée
Right, right. So I call it power pausing.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Power, oh this is where, by the way, if you didn't see the adorable selfie that we took that's on this photo of this episode, that's what this is, right? Okay.
Jeanette Bronée
Yeah. May the pause be with you. And that's why I have a little pause button on my on my book. The pause button. Pause, pause, pause.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
May the paws be with you. I like it. I feel like every pet owner out there is loving this. Like, may the paws be with you.
Jeanette Bronée
Yes, a lot of people say, is it the pause or the paws?
Brian Nelson-Palmer
The paws or the paws? I got it. Okay, right.
Jeanette Bronée
Right. And I always say, well, may the pause be your force? Um, but, um, but yeah, so, you know, we do, we do need to learn to pause more. And that's where we get into this productivity angle, right? Because people are like, yeah, but I don't have time to pause. I need to be productive and so on and so forth. We do need to pause more. We need to be able to calm our nervous system down or we basically can't think straight. Um, some people will argue, well, I'm better at it than others. Yes, we all different at it. But If we don't pause throughout the day, if we don't do the, even the basics of water, food, and a couple of pauses and rest here and there, if we don't even do that, there's a good chance that cortisol just keeps rising and rising and rising and rising and rising all throughout the day. Right. And at some point in the middle of the day, we have met our limit. We've just met our limit and then it's down from there. Right. And there was a study on what happens to the brain if we don't pause between meetings and you can just see that the stress builds, builds. So there's no, it's no surprise that we don't pay attention anymore by meeting three. We're basically wasting time, but how do you prove that? Yes, I pause. So now I'm more productive. That's a, that's, that's a, that's a tough one. And it's really tough to convince people that works.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
What do you mean by so you say power pause or pause? What is that? Just stop and go and then back in. Is it take a break? Is it walk around? Is it? I mean, I know you're probably about to tell me all of those, but like talk a little bit about that.
Jeanette Bronée
Yes, it could be any of it, right? It could be, oh my God, I just need to exhale right now and lower my nervous level because I'm just like, you know, like my mind is running faster than I am and I'm actually not breathing. I just need to pause for one minute and breathe in through the nose and exhale through the mouth to allow my nervous system to calm down. That's the one minute power pause. And I always tell people, listen, the boxer does it every three minutes. He goes to the corner.
They go to the corner for a one minute power pause to shake off what just happened, drink some water and reclaim agency and move back in. Right. But it could also be that you need the five minutes of going to the restroom, getting water, getting something to eat, or you need some space and grace and because you're upset about something and you need to go and process it, you need a five minute walk. Maybe you need 15 minutes because you need to have a conversation with someone.
So in that power pause, it basically means we take a moment, we check in for a moment, say, how am I feeling in there right now? How is my mind going? Is it spinning and just like the thoughts are on top of them, each other, and maybe I'm just thinking about what I call the pothole, which is all the things that are broken, all the things that are not working. Is the mind just talking about this is not working, this is not working, this isn't working, right?
And so that is this moment of saying, where's my mind at right now? And the next one is how am I feeling? Like, where's my heart at? Where's my feelings at? Where's my emotions at? Because I think we often dismiss how we feel instead of listening to it and using it as information to make better choices.
Right. And then there's the mental pause. That's more like, how do we get into this constructive, collaborative growth mindset, right? And that's that will, we might need a little bit more of a distance from something before we lean back in. So I talk about the three power pauses, the physical, the emotional, and the mental one.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Got it. And would you say it's one of those where at a minimum, you start with a minute, like I mean, one minute, right? If it's an hour meeting, you're probably, I mean, I have days where I am back to back to back. And I mean, I am very much a project manager and a senior project manager. And those, those days are, are brutal when they happen. And even worse when they're 30 minute back to back to back. Oh man, then it really gets crazy. But I know that I could find a minute in there to just close, either close my eyes or not look at the screen and don't immediately check your phone. Don't go look at social media. Don't just breathe. And is it like that? You start with a minute. And then if you notice that at the end of that minute, you're going back into the next meeting and you don't feel any sort of difference, then maybe you're going for a five minute after the end of this one or checking on a lunch break.
You talked about a one, a five, a 15 minute, maybe a lunch. How do you sort of determine what you need?
Jeanette Bronée
I think that's where listening to ourselves comes in, right? Learning how to listen to ourselves. And then a lot of people will say, yes, but I can't, I don't have time. And that's where this, this might take a little bit of time to actually shift things a little bit. So it might not be that I can do it tomorrow because your, your calendar might be stacked up, but start building in some pauses. So we actually focus optimally for 45 to 90 minutes at a time. After that, we need to move. We need to stretch. We need to just loosen up. We need to loosen up our system. We need to get circulation back in our system. We actually need to just reset, right? And so if we believe that we can sit in this chair all day long and just keep going, keep going, keep going, and believe that we're productive just because we're on Zoom versus actually thinking about something completely different and not listening to what people are telling us.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Yeah. Janelle, what's your, you just described how you've got a background as a gymnast. So you said get up and move around and I'm just imagining you doing like flips, cart wheels and like all kinds of what, what do you, what do you mean? Like move around? What are we talking about here?
Jeanette Bronée
I wish I was still doing cartwheels and flips. Not anymore. No, I just, I just stress. And even, I sometimes, I also change chair. So if I have a lot of back-to-back meetings, I will change my chair and that I sit differently. And so I'm, yeah, because different chairs have different kinds of support. And so, so I might do that. And so one of them is one that will rock back and forth, but I can't sit on that all day. Sometimes I need one where I just lean back a little bit and relax and the other one I'm very sort of engaged in my core. And so that helps me move and use my body a little bit. Sometimes I just get up and stretch like, you can even do it when sitting down or just like, oh, now you wanna do it, right? Now you wanna do it, now you wanna do it with me.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
I mean, you know, one side or I love I love the one. Yeah. If you're listening right now, I hope you're in on this too, right? Like mine is the one where you reach behind your back. I like the one where you tilt your head to one side and then you grab your opposite hand behind your back, you pull your opposite shoulder down and you do like this thing. You're like, that's good. And you pull. Yep. I like that one a lot about who in the afternoon I'm tracking with you on. Ooh, I like that.
Jeanette Bronée
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, standing up and just, you know, pull your leg back behind you so you can stretch that, you know, like lean on your table. And sometimes I'll just bend over as well and just reach the floor. And you can even do that sitting in a chair because you need to stretch the lower back a bit, you know. Just small things that allow the circulation to come back in the body. Cause I don't know about you, but if you're in pain, most people are not very nice.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Also true. Patience is not a virtue that many people have when they are in pain or they're hurting. So if your back hurts, you know, I'm actually I'm almost imagining or I'm thinking back to a cash when I was last time when I was working in the cubicle environment and I had my colleague had one of those bouncy balls like the big balls that it sat on and I'm almost a man and we had standing desks at that point too. So I'm imagining like, all right, well, if I'm 30 minute meetings, I got one as a standing. One is sitting in my chair and one is on the ball and like rotate them around to. And even that minute of shifting the chair, moving it out, resetting will also be kind of a pause to that's intriguing. Yeah.
Jeanette Bronée
Yep. Yeah. Jump up and down. So you get some heat back in the, there's so many little things we can do that take a minute, you know? And so, yeah, there's so much of that little stuff, but, and, and I will also say, let's pause together. You know, let's start a meeting by pausing together. And just when, as you start it, you can just say, all right, let's all land for a moment. Take a breath, exhale and just see if there's anything we need to just sort of process and put aside so we can be present right now.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
You know, I feel like that leads into my topic was the difference between what does the person do for themselves and then what does the supervisor do for the people. So I feel like that is a perfect example going into the supervisor thing. So let's jump to that, which is all right. Let's say you're over a team. You have people under you, however many people that is. What is the productivity versus well-being? How do they coexist? What do you? I mean, I love that idea, let's bring a pause into the beginning of a meeting and just take 30 seconds and just breathe. Boy, how different would you that even sounds weird to me broaching that idea to a meeting. But how cool would it be if you gave people that 30 seconds or a minute just to breathe a moment of subtle. It's like a moment of silence, but not because we're remembering somebody who passed away. It's really just your well being. So, all right. So, so talk about, talk about that.
Jeanette Bronée
You know, a lot of times we, um, arrive, um, with a lot on our plate, so to speak, meaning a lot in our mind, we're feeling things and we walk into a meeting, feeling things that happened in the last meeting has nothing to do with this meeting, but we've become reactive because of something happens in this meeting and we react, but it's actually nothing to do with this conversation, it might be something that's happening in another conversation. And so if a supervisor, any kind of leader of a conversation allows for more, what I call moments to say, hey, let's just pause on this for a moment. So if something comes up that we just all agree that, okay, let's just pause on this. Take it, take it, take a step back. Let's take a moment.
And then, then come back to the conversations as was that really what we were trying to achieve? Was this really where we were trying to solve the problem? What, what, what are really the things we need to discuss here? And so that we're almost like, we reset the meeting, right? There's a lot of times we start talking about something that might be. Not really like what I call fixing potholes, right? We, we very often, so if somebody comes into a meeting and it's irritated because of something that just happened, there's a good chance that they will start focusing on everything that's not working in the meeting.
Right. It may be that they also feeling that they were dismissed in the previous meeting, and then they show up in this meeting and they're like, want to show that they know more because they are feeling, you know, not heard and seen. And, and, and a supervisor won't know that happened. And then they are trying to manage a meeting where people might be a little aggressive with each other, or they might not be listening, or they might not be, they might just be talking over each other or whatever happens, right?
And so there is a, there's a, there's this thing that comes into our field of emotion that will disturb how we're actually engaging with each other, and that affects our productivity and our wellbeing at the same time.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Yeah, that negative energy is gonna interrupt the meeting. It's gonna disrupt, it's gonna derail the conversation. The meeting's not gonna be productive. You're gonna leave feeling less, and then you're gonna go into your next meeting carrying all that with you. That’s true. How long? How long does that take? Is that one minute? I mean, give me a ballpark here. Not in it depends. Like, what are we talking about?
Jeanette Bronée
A lot of times when we're stacking meetings up like that, we're not giving people a chance to close one meeting and start the next in their mind or in their, in their emotional capacity. I think, I know I would rather give five minutes for that, you know, and, and if it's something that has been really stressful, maybe the person needs to go for a walk for 15 minutes and really shake it off. Because there is something that happens as well. When we give the mind the space and grace to disconnect from what just happened, we actually actively have to focus on something else. Because if not, we're just churning and churning and churning and overthinking the same thing. That's not helpful either.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
So is that it's almost like you as a supervisor could decide that you're going to do 25 minute meetings or 50 minute meetings, but you're not going to do like 30 or 60 because then you end up stacked with no break. So by making it 25 or making it 50, then you are leaving time for that person to breathe, to copy down all of the things that they need to do from that meeting to capture, get whatever it is out of their head and then compose themselves for the next meet, it allows for that mental pivot, right?
Jeanette Bronée
Yep. And at the same time too, if we're smart about it, you know, if we're closing a meeting and we need to recap a couple of things and just process it in our heads so that we know what are the next steps that's actually smarter to do right after the meeting than at the end of the day when we're tired and we've forgotten half of it. So if we actually had some space and room for that, you know,
There are studies that show, for example, kids, I think it's in Finland specifically. They have a lot of stuff studies that show the kids can have max 45 minutes of engagement. They need 15 minutes off and they focus and concentrate better. They learn more in classroom.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Yeah. And so if we're, and if this is where we're putting it up for the kids, why do we not do that for ourselves as workers and for teams and for that kind of stuff like this? This is what all the research is saying. And yet we just, well, we've not a fit this meeting in it's gotta be today. So we're cramming it in between these things. And ultimately that's not gonna, but you know, Jeanette at the same time, there's, I mean like deadlines or a real thing and everybody's got a sense of urgency. If you've ever dealt with customers ever, every customer wants to be right now. They don't want to be, you know, the, I can't imagine looking at a customer or a problem issue or something and saying, you know, I'm going to need five minutes because I just came out of a really hectic meeting and it's not real.
Jeanette Bronée
Right. But what if you said it, but what if you said it this way? What if you didn't say it with the tone and the indication that you just had? I get you, I hear you. But what if you said, okay, I just came out of a meeting, there's something I need to close and process so I can be fully present and give you my attention the way you deserve.
Do you think that person would be like, nope, I'd rather that you come right now. You don't have to pay attention to me. You don't have to give me the, you know, I want you to sit here and struggle with what you just went through while you're talking to me. No, we all know that's not productive. So if we think of needing a pause as a weakness, we got pauses all wrong.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
So, you know, I'm almost imagining as a supervisor, you could even feed that into the beginning of your meeting, which is, okay, the meeting starts at whatever time and on the hour, like let's say, and you can just simply put a little sign, share your screen and put a sign up that says, I need you fully present. We are going to begin at three minutes after. There's no need for small talk right now. Close everything else out that you, you know, let yourself process, close out what you need. Or we can begin the meeting at three minutes after or something like that.
Jeanette Bronée
Yep. Or you can start closing meetings a little earlier. You know, but, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, there's a lot of ways that scheduling can be changed just slightly, right? We can have a 35 minute meeting and give people 10 minutes to close the last meeting and prepare for the next meeting. Cause how often are people not arriving? Not actually they're scrambling still when they're entering the meeting. Like we waste so much time not being prepared. But we're not giving people time to prepare, especially not emotionally and mentally.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Yeah. Okay. So the pause, we've talked about the pause and I feel like we've talked about that for the person and for the, the super, the supervisor is there overall, we came into this talking about productivity and wellbeing can't coexist or can they? And I see where the pause feeds both of those. The pause definitely, if you pause, it allows the productivity to be better in meetings and in for yourself and situations. Are there other angles or other thoughts you have sort of in this, in the same vein? What other, say more.
Jeanette Bronée
Because as I also mentioned before, well-being has a lot to do with feeling that we contribute and that we matter, right? And so if a leader or supervisor doesn't give pause to make sure everybody's included.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Oh man, can we also honor right now for all the introverts out there? Can we just say the power of the pause? Because here's an interesting fact for you that I don't know if you know listening, but, or, and Jeanette, I don't know if this is for you, but one of the most fascinating things that I learned this, ironically enough, you can laugh at me for this, I learned this from dating. But if you go on a date with an introvert, if you're an extrovert and you're like, there's a moment of silence and you do that thing where you freak out and you're like, you can't, you got to fill the silence. You got to fill the void. Here's an interesting fact. Every introvert actually has a lot to say. And if you pause and let them contemplate it for a second and say, some of the funniest people I know are introverts, but you have to stop talking. You have to shut up and listen for them to say the hilarious stuff that they want to say. So I'm just, I'm just, I told, I'm sorry. I'm totally laughing and like totally sidetracked here because I'm thinking about man, the pause for all the introverts out there and all your staff and all your people that you work with that don't necessarily, they aren't right on it. Me talk, me talk, me talk, me talk, but they totally will talk if you ask them and pause long enough for them to participate.
Jeanette Bronée
Yeah. I have, I have found the best insights from making sure everybody pause right now, because I will say to people in a meeting, I'll say, can we just pause on this for a moment and see what comes up as we reflect on it.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Ooh, that's a good quote. Can we just pause? Say that again? Can we…
Jeanette Bronée
Can we just pause on this for a moment and reflect on it and see what comes up as we do and then share that? You know, or is there something more that we need to ask? Is there something we haven't looked at?
Brian Nelson-Palmer
You know, I almost want to I want to I want I want you to write this one down if you're listening almost and try this instead of, you know, at the end of every meeting, you ask, is there anything else? What if instead of the phrase, is there anything else? What if you say instead that magical quote, can we pause for just a moment and see what comes up on this topic and just pause? Man, how cool would that be?
Jeanette Bronée
A lot of times, and we need to do that a little bit more than the last minute before. Right. And we can also encourage people to, Hey, when, once you get a chance to pause on this after the meeting, if there's anything that you feel that we missed, please jot it down and send it to me. We're giving permission to people to actually give a little bit of space to think.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Absolutely. And you know, I, anybody who's been through public speaking training, like Jeanette and I both do a lot of this and the, who, one of the interesting, the best tips is you do not end with, are there any questions? That's the biggest no-no. So you as a manager, you as a leader, you as a project manager, if you're leading a meeting, do not end with, are there any questions? What you do is you say, now is a good point for discussion.
but I have a couple of things to wrap up before we conclude. And that way you get all your Q and A and then you take it back and you say, all right, my takeaways from this are this. If there's anything follow up with me after, but not ending with the Q and A. Ooh, that's like a, hmm, ooh.
Jeanette Bronée
That's a lot of times, um, when somebody has given you an answer to something instead of then jumping in and starting to discuss that answer. You can pause a little bit as you're digesting their answer as a leader too, so that they actually see that you are thinking about what they're just saying, and then you can say, that's, that, that's interesting. Is there more to that you want to, you know, is it, is it, is there more to that? And then people.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
My favorite phrase is say more on that. If something comes up, say more on that. And I'm processing and I don't know what to say yet. So I'm telling them to talk some more. Like, yeah.
Jeanette Bronée
Right, you could do that too. But you know, because I think that that's the one thing, right, is our wellbeing is very connected with reclaiming curiosity.
So by the way is productivity. I think. Because a lot of times we think of productivity as just getting it done, but how about getting it done right? Or how about getting it done in a way that's more effective. If we don't pause and ask, what is this for? What are we trying to achieve? And what's the best way to do that? We might just do what we've always done, even if it's not really working well.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Right. It's that, it's that idea of if you're in, you know, if you're focusing on the wellbeing, it makes sense that productivity will improve, even though it's almost counterintuitive. But if you're, if you're approaching this in a, in a better state of mind and a better place, you're going to be more effective. There's going to be less errors. There's going to be less issues. You're going to be in the right frame of mind and you'll be a little more focused on what that is, which is going to benefit everyone. So it totally makes sense that if you're standing up for the pause, you're standing up for productivity in a way.
Jeanette Bronée
Yeah, there you go. Can I add another layer to it?
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Ooh, I like layers. This is turning into like a wedding cake. I like this. This is fun. All right, what do we got? No, no. Oh, seriously? Oh, my God. I'm so the guy. Oh, vanilla with buttercream. Oh, gosh. All right, Jeanette, we're not getting married. That's it.
Jeanette Bronée
as long as it's chocolate. I know wedding cakes, I know wedding cakes can't be chocolate. I know, I know about to say you and I are not getting married or if we do we each need a wedding cake of our own.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Oh, I like that. That's even better. Nope. Two cakes. Yeah, yeah, let's do a New Year's cake instead of a wedding cake. This is good, all right. There we go. So what do you got?
Jeanette Bronée (41:43.474)
Yeah. No, no, don't worry. We're not getting married. Anybody, you know, no, no. Just, just give me the cake. Just give me the cake. That's it. There's two cakes. Yeah. All right. So all joking aside, but that was, now I know what you're tasting cake is. Um, so, you know, the other layer to this layer cake is when we pause, we can actually formulate a question in the direction of what it is we're trying to achieve. Because most of the time we ask, why was it not done? Why is it not working? Why are we not getting this together? We ask why not questions. Under stress, we become why noters.
We focus on what's not working, we're fixing potholes. And some people will know that fixing a pothole means the pothole will just come back. You actually have to completely redrain the area so that the pothole, you get to the root cause of the pothole and that's what you fix. And so instead, when we pause, instead of saying why is this not working, we can say, hmm.
This isn't working. What do we need so we can get it to work? Now you just automatically hijacked everyone's attention to focus on creativity and constructive collaboration.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
It's like instead of past focus, it's forward focus, future focus.
Jeanette Bronée
Yeah, yeah. And so if you're asking somebody why something's not working, you are already, their energy is already getting drained. Oh, you know the feeling, right? You now have to defend yourself. You have to work, like all of these, not only are you wasting time, you're wasting energy, you're feeling horrible, you feel attacked, you feel you did something wrong. It is actually affecting your wellbeing and your productivity. But if you're saying, hmm, that's not really working, what do we need so that we can get it done? What do you suggest?
Now our energy is going up, we feel we matter, and now our well-being is increasing.
I know these are weird, subtle things, but so is our wellbeing. And that's what I think is important piece here, right? That we are rethinking what does wellbeing look like. So it's not about being in the gym. It's about human relationships.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
You know, I'm having a like my synapses are like connecting in weird ways right now. And the one connection that I just made in my head was I heard something the other day that was really profound to me. And they did a study on how many people will respond to something that is feedback, something that's called feedback, something that's called survey or something where you ask for their advice. And people are way more likely to provide advice than they are to provide feedback or survey. And what I'm laughing about is we just said that feedback and survey are backwards looking, which is what you just said and re-reframed and people are more likely to provide advice for what we should do next, which is exactly the converse. It's like, whoa, it's all coming together. That's what we're talking about. So interesting. Ooh.
Jeanette Bronée
Yeah, yeah, and. One more layer. This is the icing.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Another one? Oh my god. This is like the seven layer cake that I love at the bakery. Alright, let's go.
Jeanette Bronée
So what happens is that what we care about and what we worry about are also two sides of the same coin. So when we're looking back. It's very often all the things, or if we're looking at what's not working, it becomes the worry conversation. If we're talking about what do we need so that we can achieve this? Why does it matter? Who is it for all of those sort of like good questions that help frame how we solve the problem. Now we're tapping into what we care about and we're much more engaged.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
completely. That makes perfect sense. That's a lot of layers. I like this. Okay.
Jeanette Bronée
So, essentially it comes down to understanding not only how the mind works but how our nervous system and how our, how our mind heart connection sort of works together and thinking that we're not bringing our emotions with us to work is wrong. We need to do that because that is where we make wise decisions. It's also how we engage with other people and it's how we tap into what we care about.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
So can you share, so we just added a couple of layers and I feel like there's a lot of things floating around out there. Do you have like a story or like a kind of an example of sort of a before and after situation? I know I'm putting you on the spot here. Do you have something like that for?
Jeanette Bronée
There's a lot of them. Um, well, the one about worry and care, the one I can share with that, um, really had me stop in my tracks was when I was taking care of my dad while he was dying of cancer and I was the caregiver. And, um, of course I worried because we didn't know when he was going to die. We just, he would get, they'd given us six weeks and we were already pushing past six weeks. So it was like today, not today, like we were, we didn't know what we were up against, right. And, um, and I was, um, sort of running around, you know, taking care of him. And he asked, he said two things that had me stop in my tracks. The first one he said was, why are you so angry at me? And I said, I'm not angry at you. I was like, I'm not angry at you. Right. It was like the best words in the deck. I'm not angry at you. Right. That's the best way to answer. Right, but then I stopped and I was like, oh my God, I'm not angry at you. I'm angry at the situation. I think it's unfair that you're dying. I think it's unfair that, and all of these things that happen, right. And my mother had just died the year before. And so that was a real recognition that we react emotionally if we do not integrate our emotions and then he said, instead of running around taking care of me, could you come over here and sit down and just talk to me? I wanna know that you care about me. I don't need you to care for me. And that was also a really big shift in how I see the world, because I realized people don't need us to care for them. Actually, quite the opposite. We take over and we sort of like assume we know what they want or need and we take care of them. That's kind of like taking their agency away. But when we care about them, we have a conversation.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
That was such a good moment where you said he's he said come and talk to me. Say that again. So the
Jeanette Bronée
He said, can you come here and sit down and talk to me? I don't need you to care for me. I need to know that you care about me.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Help me don't care for me care about me. And I'm just connecting with if you've never seen the nail in the forehead video that went viral on YouTube, where it's the girl has got a nail in her forehead and the guy's like, I can fix that. And she's like, I don't need you to fix it. I just need you and I'm imagining like you that's with family that's with employees that's with co workers that's with you know, it's interesting that I feel like In work a lot of times, you're tasked with fixing the problem and it's almost like taking your power pause and re and thinking, okay, do I need to do this or do I need to just be there for the person so that they know that I care about them? That would be a huge wellbeing thing.
Jeanette Bronée
Yeah. And supporting them and saying, Hey, what do you need so you can get this done? So for example, right, there is, um, there was, um, a person who always came to work late, right? It was in my old life, um, of, of in retail, she was always coming to work late. And, um, instead of telling her you're always coming to work late, this is not okay next time you're fired, like I didn't do that. I said, instead, I was a very young manager, but my dad had taught me well. And, and I said, “so it's a problem that you're always coming late, partly because you need to be here on time, but you already know that you don't need me to tell you that, but also because of how it impacts everyone else around you. So what do you need so you can get here on time?”
That had a whole different conversation. Right. Because now she was telling me about her challenges to not only get out of the house, but also get transportation to get to work and now I could help her solve the problem instead, maybe not, but at least I could, number one, I could have some empathy and compassion so that she didn't feel that she was a bad person for coming late, but we could actually talk about it because now I could help her figure out. So part of that problem was that the person that was coming to pick up her child for daycare wasn't always consistent, right? And so she was then delayed and then everything was like, there was all these like, cause and effect, right? And so instead of her now feeling so stressed about being late, she could focus instead on solving that problem, which was, I need you to be here and show up consistently. And then she could do the same with that person. And then she could instead figure out, well, maybe it's better that I drop off my kid. Now I'm in charge. Like there was many different ways we now can help somebody solve the problem. Because just telling them, you can't be late anymore, you’ll get fired, isn't solving the problem. We're solving the wrong problem at least. We're solving the problem as somebody is late. The problem we really need to solve is getting there on time.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Sure. And that's, yeah. And it's also, it almost feeds back to that same, we were just talking about history focused versus forward focused, right? History focused would be, you've been late five times. What's the problem? Why? What was it? We were just saying, why not? Or why, why is that a problem? Why can't you get here on time? Versus what?
Jeanette Bronée
Right. Yeah, basically just saying to somebody, you're fired if you're not here on time next time. You know, but we're not actually helping the person get there on time.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Versus the forward looking of what, what do you need to get here on time? Or what would that look like? Or thinking about the future as opposed to the past? Interesting. Yeah.
Jeanette Bronée
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a conversation with a CEO who wanted his people to come back into the workplace after COVID, right? And he said, we're having such problems with people coming in, they don't wanna come in, da da. And this person had brought their child with them to work and the CFO, his CFO had gotten really upset and he was gonna send out a letter saying, you can't come to work with your kids. And I said, okay.
And he said, what should I do? I was like, well, number one, find out why it's a problem for the CFO that the kid is coming to work rather than just saying, don't send the letter or, you know, have a conversation about it. But I said, but, but why are your people not coming to work? Why are they bringing the child to work? That's, that's more interesting to understand not why it's a problem. They bring it to work, but why do they bring it to work? Right. And he was like, well, they don't have childcare. I was like, okay, so how do we solve childcare problem? By the end of the conversation, he realized he had a completely empty floor at his factory and he could hire, um, he could, he could create a childcare there for all his employees. He solved the problem. And then people would actually have their kids in the playroom or kindergarten or whatever that looks like. Right. I know there's a whole thing there with needing, um, you know, certified people and so on and so forth, but that's a problem we can solve.
If you're a company that wants your people to come back to work, and that is important for productivity, then solve the problem why they're not able to come back to work rather than just telling them you got to show up.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Yeah. Man, that's big. There's a lot of that going around.
Jeanette Bronée
There was a company that started, they moved the business and people were like, the commute was too long. Well, they got a bus, a little mini pickup and they would pick up people where they used to go to work and bring them there. So now they didn't have to commute. In the same way, like their commute was taken care of. Right. And so if we can engage with people and ask them more questions, Not only are we supporting their wellbeing, we're also supporting productivity, I believe.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Yeah, man. And that's a whole wormhole that we can, we'll save that one for another episode, Jeanette, on the whole coming back to work thing. And now, but the point is really good, which is ask the question from a forward looking perspective. And that's, that's a, I love that thought. That's a really wonderful thought.
This has been wonderful and I feel like we're sort of approaching. We've certainly gone on. We've got we've captured a lot of really good ideas here. So, Jenna, thanks for joining me today. I love to ask, are there any resources that you recommend on this topic? And by the way, insert, if you're not watching the video and you're listening to us, she's got this beautiful book that's behind her. So talk about your book, but then also talk about other resources on this area that you recommend or that you've enjoyed over the years.
Jeanette Bronée
Yeah. I do, I do write a blog every week or a newsletter every week that you can sign up for on my website, JeanettePonny.com. And you know, all of that, it's, I'm just sharing whatever comes to mind that I feel is something that might be a challenge and sharing tools for how to do that. I don't sell anything really, um, on my, on my website or my, or my, um, my newsletter other than, Hey, buy my book.
There's a lot of tools. I think of the book as a book of tools. And it's based on tools that I've learned through the years of coaching people. It's tools that I've learned myself through growing up with a dad who was always very proactive. He would always ask me questions and he would show me that growing me was to ask questions and helping me find my answers myself. And so that's a really good resource that I can highly recommend, right? I recommend my book.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
There we go. I will drop all of these will be links in the in the episode notes too. So this is great.
Jeanette Bronée
And you know what? I think also, um, mindfulness has been a really good teacher for me in the sense of the, the power pause. Um, so basically learning to meditate, even if it's for five minutes, because really what you're doing is you're training your mind, you're learning how to listen to your thoughts and a lot of people get it all wrong, they think that they have to like, not think that's not how it works, but you can direct where your thoughts are, where your attention is at. And we do that by telling your mind what to focus on. And so actually a very simple mindfulness practice could be a really good tool, even if it's just five minutes every day to learn how to train your mind, to pay attention to what you want it to pay attention to.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Yep. And that's a super skill because just like we were talking about earlier with, if you're coming out of that meeting or you're really flustered or you're angry or you're upset or you got shut out or whatever it was to be able to breathe and then pause and then think about, okay, that was the past and this next meeting is not that. So figuring out how to redirect half of that is that's, that's partly meditation right there. That's a superpower.
Jeanette Bronée
Yep. Yeah. And the meditative practice of just following the breath in and out, you can't think about two things at the same time.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Oh, try me. I don't know. Hold on. Like, no, wait a minute. My reaction to that, you can't think about two things at the same time. And my thought was, oh, hold my beer. I got that. This is true. You can't focus on.
Jeanette Bronée
But you can think about two things right after each other. But at the very same time, so if you're saying to yourself, I'm breathing in, I'm breathing out, I'm breathing in, I'm breathing out. There might be a little notice over here that's trying to get your attention, but that's the training of the mind, right? Just follow and that can give you enough space and grace to be ready for what's next.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Well, Janette will, I'm going to, I'll certainly include all those links and those resources that you listed there. And we talked about your books. So that link will be in there as well. Um, here's what I love. I love that this started for you with a personal story and you followed it. I love that you're doing this.
You know, from gymnast to parents with cancer to then went back to school and now learning about it. And now you've turned it into a book and a thing. And I just I love that this is a passion and that you're talking about this thing. And I love how a lot of our advice today was, I feel like very practical little things that people could try right now. Like they don't need to go read your book to try some of the really cool ideas that Jenna gave today in what we've talked about.
And so I love, thank you so much for coming and joining me on the show today.
Jeanette Bronée
Thank you for having this conversation and for caring about people out there that need to learn whatever they can learn from your podcast on a regular basis. I appreciate you for that. Thank you.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Absolutely. And is there any particular place that you talked about your blog or they can subscribe to the email list if they want to keep in touch with you? What's the best way would you say?
Jeanette Bronée
You can find me on LinkedIn and you can try me on Instagram, but I'm on and off active in messages and things like that. So that's a little harder, but try me on LinkedIn. And as I said, engage with me through the newsletter as well. That's a great way to hear my thoughts. And then, you know, I do, I am playing a little bit with my own podcast called Pause on This, but I'm not where you are, Brian, with that. That's just a very new little idea of mine.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
You know, all every journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. So like I think one of my favorite quotes the other day that I saw was that, you know, if your hundredth episode of your podcast is going to be amazing, that doesn't make the first one suck any less like I had, man. I guess I appreciate the confidence. And I still think that I'm in the very beginning of my journey, too. So I appreciate that, Jeanette. But yes, so the podcast is that's cool. I'm going to I'll make sure I include that link in the episode notes here too
Jeanette Bronée
It does indeed. Yes, yes, I took a pause this summer with all of that, and I'm getting back on track with the things that I want to do.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Right. Yep. Being intentional about it. Not, not, not my goal with this show is not to be a famous podcast host. Like I do this because I love keeping in touch with the people that I've had the chance to come and speak with and will speak to in the future. And so this is a way that we can keep in touch and I don't love to write. So podcasts are perfect because I would rather have conversations and talk about this. I love this. So
Jeanette Bronée
There you go. That's how we keep the world alive, isn't it? It's through conversations.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Totally. Absolutely. Let's keep doing it. Let's keep doing it. And so for you tuning in, I have two things for you. The first one is on this episode specifically, do you have a friend or a colleague who you've talked to or you saw a post about or something, the whole conundrum of wellbeing or wellbeing and productivity? If you would share the link to this episode specifically with them.
Jeanette Bronée
You got it.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
I know Janette and I would love to know that our conversation today went on and touched someone else that this is relevant to. And if you have a conversation with them about it, imagine what that would mean to them. So thank you for sharing this specific episode with them. And also the second thing is, if I also have an email list that I send special stuff out besides just the podcast episodes and stuff. So if you want to be a part of that email list for the special stuff, please come join the fun. That link will be in the episode notes as well. But I love sharing productivity gladiator with you. So that's a wrap.