Dr. Amanda Crowell, a cognitive psychologist and author of "Great Work", shares powerful insights on successfully starting something new. From overcoming mental blocks to having honest conversations about bandwidth, she provides a refreshing perspective on thriving at work without sacrificing everything else. Her relatable personal journey adds depth to this conversation.
The Audio/Podcast
Links to References In This Episode
Amanda’s Book: “Great Work”
Amanda’s TEDx Talk: Three reasons you aren’t doing what you say you will do
Episode Digest
Whether it's taking on a new project at work, learning a language, or starting a passion career on the side, embarking on something new can be both exciting and daunting. Our minds can play tricks on us, creating mental blocks that prevent us from even trying. In this insightful conversation, we explore strategies for successfully navigating those roadblocks and setting yourself up for a smoother journey.
One of the biggest obstacles to starting something new is the fixed mindset of "people like me don't do things like this."
We tell ourselves stories about how others will judge us or that we'll somehow be rejected if we step out of our current roles. As Dr. Crowell shares, "The stories we tell each other and ourselves about what people will say about us when we change keep us locked in our current situation more than almost anything else."
“The stories we tell each other and ourselves about what people will say about us when we change keep us locked in our current situation more than almost anything else.”
To overcome this belonging block, she recommends having open conversations - both with yourself and others. If you find yourself hiding your intentions, that's a red flag that you're worried about potential backlash. Getting it out in the open can reveal that most people don't actually care that much about your personal endeavors.
Another common mindset trap is the belief that "I can't do this."
We imagine scenarios where everything would have to perfectly align for us to succeed at this new thing. The reality is that this fixed mindset of inability becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy - why would you persevere if you've already decided it's impossible? Acknowledging self-limiting beliefs is key.
The antidote? As Dr. Crowell puts it, "Start much smaller than people think is reasonable." Rather than attempting your "magnum opus" out of the gate, begin with bite-sized, manageable actions. Don’t start by writing a book. Write a blog post first, then another one, then another one. Take one small step, observe that it wasn't as difficult as anticipated, and then ask "what do I do now?" Focusing on the emergent, Next Smart Step prevents you from becoming paralyzed by the enormity of the overall goal.
Don’t start by writing a book. Write a blog post first, then another one, then another one. Take one small step…
Of course, starting something new extends beyond just your own mental game. In a work context, organizations and managers play a vital role in setting you up for success. Wise leaders are “humanitarian managers” that recognize that their employees are human beings with complicated emotions, not just output machines. They create an environment of psychological safety by framing new initiative as a "beta" and explicitly stating that mistakes will happen. As Dr. Crowell notes, "If a manager can hold that and protect their people so that when their boss looks down, they look like rock stars - that's the magic."
They also facilitate team-level mental contrasting by proactively discussing potential roadblocks and establishing protocols for dealing with them. This normalizes the inevitable learning curves and prevents surprises from derailing progress.
“We can do this new thing, but not at the current level of work. What existing priorities should we let go of?”
However, even the most supportive environment can still breed burnout if boundaries aren't established. A critical conversation that often gets missed: "We can do this new thing, but not at the current level of work. What existing priorities should we let go of?" As Dr. Crowell emphasizes, trying to operate at a 100% workload is unsustainable - you must preserve bandwidth for unplanned emergencies. When managers and employees lack the courage to have this dialogue, the result is overwork, mistakes, and potential health crises.
““Let that feeling of ‘I can’t do this anymore’ be your breaking point. Don’t go to the hospital to realize that was it, that was the breaking point.””
Ultimately, successfully starting something new requires developing particular skills beyond just gathering information. You must learn to identify mental roadblocks, ask purposeful questions, assemble an emerging knowledge base, and proactively communicate boundaries.
By reframing our self-talk, setting reasonable expectations, and fostering open conversations, we can overcome procrastination and self-sabotage. So whether your "new thing" is personal or professional, approach it with self-compassion, start small, and surround yourself with supportive voices. As Dr. Crowell advises:
"Let that feeling of 'I can't do this anymore' be your breaking point. Don’t go to the hospital to realize that was it, that was the breaking point."
Today’s Guest
Dr. Amanda Crowell
Coach & Author on Productivity and Great Work
Dr. Amanda Crowell is a cognitive psychologist, speaker, podcaster, author of Great Work, and the creator of the Great Work Journals. Amanda's TEDx talk: Three Reasons You Aren’t Doing What You Say You Will Do has received more than a million views and has been featured on TED's Ideas blog and TED Shorts. Her ideas have also been featured on NPR, Al Jazeera, The Wall Street Journal, Quartz, and Thrive Global. Amanda lives in New Jersey with her husband, two adorable kids, and a remarkable newfiepoo named Ruthie. She spends her days educating future teachers, coaching accidental entrepreneurs, and speaking about how to make progress on Great Work to colleges and corporate teams.
Website & Podcast: amandacrowell.com
Book: amazon.com/Great-Work-Amanda-J-Crowell/dp/1737374196
IG: @aj_crowell
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About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a senior project manager, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. These Gladiators wield email management superpowers, a laser-guided ability to focus, samurai-grade prioritization skills, a sniper-precise task tracking approach, Jedi time management skills, and a secret sauce for maximizing their personal life balance. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat! Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.
Transcript
Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:04.153)
I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. On this show, I share personal, practical productivity skills. And In this episode, we're digging into the tips you may have missed on how to successfully start something new. With me on the show today is Amanda Crowell, who is an author, a coach on productivity and an author.
I'm so excited about her being here. I did. I can't even say it right. She's the coach. She's a coach and author on productivity and great work. work. Amanda, thanks so much for being here.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (00:36.93)
Thank you for having me. I'm super excited.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:39.685)
Now for those people who might not be familiar with you and on this topic, share a little bit about your background and how you're into starting something new successfully.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (00:50.09)
Yeah, so I am a cognitive psychologist. That's the kind of doctor I am. So I focus a lot on the individuals, sort of the individual and their mind and how specifically that our mind creates our reality and how it impacts how we're able to do things. So start something new in one mindset is completely different from starting something else in a different mindset. So so much, a lot of the work can happen just internally to have a different experience starting something new.
So I'm excited about this topic. Great work. The topic of my book and sort of the area that I focus on most is the work that matters most to you. So the stuff that I want people to start anew is whatever it is that's calling to them from the inside. But honestly, these same strategies and skills can be the difference between being able to do what your boss is asking you to do or really struggling to do that and not meeting expectations. So it can work on either end.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:46.817)
Yeah, We're really kind of running the gamut of We can apply these things to if you're currently have a day job and hoping to quit that and start a new job, or if you just want to learn Spanish, or if you've been given a new assignment at work and you've never done this particular assignment at work before and now it's going to be a new thing. It's kind of like that whole approach to trying something new, right?
Dr. Amanda Crowell (02:06.878)
Right, exactly. Well, and that's because you're a human in all of those environments. You're the same human when you're at work. You're the same human when you're trying to learn Spanish. You're the same human when you're in a relationship with your husband or kids or dog. And we think like, oh, I'm this, you know, I'm just now I'm being my worker self for now. But really there's a you in there that's a pure, honest, like the Amanda-ness, the Brian-ness, like that carries with you in every environment. So if you can really understand that person.
then every environment can be informed by the best strategies for you, which is what we're looking for.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:41.617)
Man, preach Amanda. Absolutely. I mean, everything with productivity gladiator is about the person as a whole, right? The skills that we learn is about this. This applies at work and this applies at home. And that totally love it. Now, one thing I'm curious about, there's plenty of folks. I mean, I talk about productivity, you talk about productivity, great work. There's a lot of people who work in this space. So what is it that you would say makes you a little different from those who might do the similar things?
Dr. Amanda Crowell (03:10.11)
Yeah, so my background, like I said, I'm a cognitive psychologist. I have a PhD in that. I've worked in schools and organizations to help focus on like, what are the people in the system? How can they work together? Like what do they need to change? And it's a particular kind of change management system that I bring to all of my coaching and it's all through the book and it's all everything that I do is really honoring of human beings and the way they struggle to make change and the kinds of things that unlock
flexibility and ability to make change. And so one of the interesting things, and it's called improvement science, that's the particular kind of change management system that I've been trained in. And the thing that I love about it is that it really changes the conversation. Often when we talk about productivity, it's about like information. Can you tell me exactly how to time block or use the Pomodoro method or have a morning routine? What should I do in the morning?
But The thing that you learn from improvement science and from working with people, and I know for sure that you've had this experience is that information's free on the internet. All the information's already available. So it can't be about the information. It has to be about the implementation, about the person in the system, and what beliefs are they bringing to it? And how do they, The same exact tip, whatever it is, set strong boundaries by turning off your email when you leave for the day.
Like that's like a tip, that's a piece of information. But then it's like, nobody does it. Or they do it and it makes them deeply stressed and it really worked for their best friend but it didn't work for them and they're very confused. I thought this was the key to productivity. It's like, well, no, it's just a starting point. There's so much more, it's all in the doing of it that changes it completely. And I think as a cognitive psychologist and a sustainable change management expert, that sort of approach to it takes it out of
here's some good ideas, don't you think I have good ideas? And into who are you? What are you hoping to accomplish? accomplish? How does this idea fit into your prior life, what you're currently doing, the stresses you're feeling, the relationships you have, like your self-expertise is what we call it in the book, well, what I call it in the book. That directs completely what works and what doesn't. And so it's that skillset that makes all the difference.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:35.281)
Absolutely. Well, I mean, With that as an intro, then let's talk about our topic for today, successfully starting something new. So when I gave, when I said, hey, let's, this is the, I was really interested in having this episode with you. What were the things that came to mind right off the bat for you on successfully starting something new?
Dr. Amanda Crowell (05:54.846)
Yeah, well, okay. So the first thing that I think people misunderstand about themselves is that we are very particular, right? So it depends on what you're starting. So the classic example of starting something new, especially this time of year, we're recording this in January, it's like, I'm gonna lose weight or I'm gonna start exercising, right? So we know what it is that we're trying to do. And we've probably read a lot about it. We've probably, you know,
watched a lot of people's transformation stories, and then we go try to do it. And at time and time and time again, we struggled to do it. And then it's a question of like, well, we already have the information, right? We need to move our bodies and get sweaty and increase our heartbeat. Maybe we have a lot of information, maybe we've done a ton of research. And it seems like the more information we have, it doesn't actually change our experience of it. So one of the...
One of the things I think I'm most known for is this TEDx talk I did back in like 2018. It was called three reasons that you're not doing what you say you want to do. And it's about the mindsets or the beliefs that we're bringing into what it is we're doing. So we're trying to prepare to exercise. And we're like, well, what do I like? Well, I like yoga and I should run. We have all these beliefs and we continue to get the same result. But if we actually ask a different question,
which isn't about the tips and the tricks and the strategies, but is instead about what beliefs are you bringing into what it is you're trying to do, then you can start to actually move the needle. My personal experience that's conveyed in this TED talk, but also like everywhere I've ever been, it was like a viral article and is that I never ever exercised at all period. I was totally against it. I didn't want to ever like sweat, sweating. I was against it. I was like, some people sweat and some people don't. I don't sweat.
kind of worked for me. And then I had two kids and I couldn't like carry them around and had really bad back pain. So I taught myself how to be first, how to run, then how to swim, then how to bike. And then I did a triathlon and became somebody who it should have like never been my story. Like it should never have been my story. And in that transformation and that experience of going from somebody who like was categorically against it to being somebody who did it.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (08:18.798)
regularly for years informed a lot about how I understand change sort of writ large, whether it's in an organization or with a person. So sometimes, and what it came down to wasn't like how to run, although I did need to fix my running because I was like messing up my plantar fasciitis, I had to learn Chi running, but that was just like a very easy shift. Chi running was not the
Dr. Amanda Crowell (08:47.886)
I can't, I just cannot. Some people can, I can not. Not that I don't want to, I didn't want to. But it wasn't that, it was that I felt like something about me made it impossible. And we think when you say that to people, they're like, no, I know it's possible. Like in your mind, you're like, I see a world where all the stars align and I could exercise. But we don't think that in the regular world as we currently are, we can do what we wanna do. That's a huge block. If you believe...
that secretly it's not possible, then why would you persevere? Because that's really what we're talking about, right? It's about persevering when it gets hard. Then there's like people will, people like me don't do things like this. People will hate me if I start to do it. People will judge me. People will misunderstand me. If I start exercising, people are gonna think that I'm like on my high horse or whatever. The stories we tell each other and ourselves about what people will say about us when we change, keep us locked in our current situation.
more than almost anything else. You don't wanna change because you don't want the people to turn their back on you. And because we don't say it out loud, we don't discover that nobody really cares whether we exercise or not, you know? Or whatever it is we're trying to do.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:57.321)
Yeah. What kinds of indicators do you, cause that, well, What you're saying really resonates with me on many of the, you, you like, you are the type of person who does this or I don't normally do this and, but then what will people think about me if, I mean, my gosh, make a change in a relationship, make a change in a work, I used to be the drummer in a rock band and now I do productivity stuff. And like, well, what will people say because I used to be in a rock band? band. Like, I mean, so what are the, What do you notice are the indicators that might be what's holding you back?
Dr. Amanda Crowell (10:39.742)
It is what's holding you back first of all. Like it just is. We are all actually, all three of these are at play at some part. Like, Well, so the three are, I don't think I can, people like me don't, and I don't want to. So those are three sort of different things. And when you struggled with something your whole life, all three of them are actively at play. The one that you're talking about, the belonging one, is sort of the header of it, is holding most people back from any change.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (11:06.486)
Like when you just think about the basics of human beings and change, our mind does not want to do something different because we know for sure that the things we've already done didn't kill us last time. So If it didn't kill us last time, it's probably not gonna kill us this time. It's a lot safer and easier just to do what we've already done. And so any little change sometimes, like Let's say that you were like a huge fan of Sex and the City. And then you were like, this new Sex and the City show came out, it's called
and just like that or something like that. And maybe you don't like it, but you don't tell anyone because you are a person who likes Sex and the City. And you've built these bridges with people, you've talked about it, you've worn the t-shirt, you've gone to see the movies, wearing the outfits, right? Like you're a person who likes Sex and the City. You're gonna keep it to yourself if you don't like it just like that. But the truth is like the indicator that it's holding you back a lot.
is if you think, if you're hiding it. if you're like, I'm gonna exercise, but I'm not gonna tell anyone, or I'm thinking about changing my job, but I'm not telling anyone, or I'm telling the one person that I have like in my mind gone through all the things they could say, and they're not gonna say it yet. And if that's happening, right? If you find yourself trying to like change, But not letting anybody see you change, so you can make sure it's safe first? that's just a red flag. It's not a problem. It doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means like,
you're nervous that somebody's gonna, and our feelings, the most vulnerable feelings are the ones that feel uncertain like that, like vulnerability or disappointment or hurt, like those are the hardest feelings to feel, right? If you're angry, you can feel it. You're like, ah, that's good. I don't know how to say it without cursing. Darn you. You know, that we can say anger, we can say, but I'm uncertain that you're gonna still like me,
Dr. Amanda Crowell (13:00.786)
if we don't like the same shows, like is our relationship strong enough for us to talk about Big Bang Theory instead? Like it all sounds so ridiculous. But really, We don't ever want to be rejected by other people. Like that is a real hard thing to face. It's at the core of like so many productivity tips, too. Right. Like how many times I was looking at your program, like how many times have you told people like turn off your email? Don't check your email in the middle of the night. Don't.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (13:28.574)
like check your email in the morning and at night. Like we have all these email rules, like our suggestions for prioritizing email. I don't know what your suggestions are. Those are usually mine. And then people are like, I know that the reason that they're not doing it is because they don't want somebody to say, why didn't you get right back to me? Don't I matter to you? But that's not what comes into our minds, but that is how we feel. Like we don't want people to interpret our behavior as rejecting of them because we don't want them to reject.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (13:56.542)
us, we want to stay in connection, it just matters so much to us. And so we need to just face it and then maybe have a conversation. And usually these things resolve themselves and the blocks no longer there. Now we can walk right through that door. And that's the difference of like, is it really about the tip? Or is it about the way that we are showing up in our lives trying to make change? When we're when we don't know who we are, or what we're worried about, then we're sort of
Dr. Amanda Crowell (14:26.114)
We're locked, but we don't know why? you know?
Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:28.637)
Yeah. So, and all of these are these seems These are incredibly helpful as far as what's holding you back. And when we were talking about today's episode, we're talking about successfully starting something new. So once you get past the things that are holding you back, what what's next? Amanda, what's the how do you.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (14:50.038)
Well, I like that you think you get past the things that are holding you back. Because you know, yeah, I'm here to crush your dreams. Because actually, always have you ever heard the analogy that we're all going around and around the same mountain, just seeing it from different perspectives, but we're all but we're always still you are still whatever it is that's got you locked up. You're just going to.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:56.159)
It's my dream world. Don't ruin my dream, Amanda. Come on.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (15:17.41)
perceive it at a different level, you're gonna be right back there again. So, but I am gonna answer your question. I'm gonna change shift a little just so that we can see it from a different perspective. So When we think about what it means to do something new, "do something new," we have to start that something new, we have to keep doing that something new when it gets hard and then we have to finish that something new, okay? So it doesn't really matter. Do you wanna pick what it is? Because you have to have an example. We're very particular. We have problems with some things and not others. So what feels like a good example to use?
with these three.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (15:47.937)
Let's do, you got a good, you got a new assignment at work. Your boss needs you to do something you haven't done before. Hey, I want you, hey Brian, or hey Amanda, I want you to go do this new project initiative that we're taking on.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (16:02.794)
Okay, so like you, we want you to manage the social media for our company or something.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:07.413)
That could work. Yeah, let's run with that.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (16:09.514)
Okay, it has to be something I know something enough about. I mean, it could be like, I want you to be a scrum master, right? I want you to run this Agile project management team. Is that better? Yeah, okay.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:17.961)
That works too. I like both of those. Let's go with the project management example. Yeah.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (16:24.522)
Okay, right, because those are your peeps, right? Okay.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:27.621)
Yeah, little more. There's more project managers listening and project manager and aspiring leaders are generally the many of the folks that are tuning in. So yeah, that's, that's good.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (16:35.838)
Okay, so that's an interesting one because it has to be done at the organizational level, right? Like everyone has to agree to be on a Scrum team as opposed to have somebody managing it from the outside doing like giving them reminders and following up and trying to push the program from the outside, right? So Agile Project Management is like, come to me and I will help you manage your 90-day year or whatever, however you think about it. Ask you what your blockers are, coach you through the process of not falling behind in the first place.
Right? All right, so let's say you have like, all you've ever done is regular project management, pushing from the outside, you're just the reminders guy, send a million emails, you're trying to facilitate communication, you're setting up meetings, whatever. So you have to first feel like you know what it is you're doing. So if you find yourself, this is like the starting, like beginning to do the project, you have to, if you're having a block against it, you might not be.
It might be that you've already taken a program and now you're gonna implement it, you're very excited about it. There is not really a block. But if you are feeling a block, you may ask yourself, like, what is it, like, who were you before? Did you, do you feel like, I could imagine you having like a belonging block around, like, I feel like an outsider and now I'm joining this team, but like, they don't even really want me there. It's a bunch of software designer people and they like, do not care whether I understand their blocks, you know?
So as if that's a belonging block and you have to talk yourself through it, have a conversation with them. You can't have the right conversation till you know what the block is. Hey guys, I know I'm joining your team. I don't want you to feel like I'm trying to tell you what to do. We're gonna try this in a new way. It might feel awkward. Can you tell me if it feels awkward? You have to have that belonging conversation to unlock it so that you can begin the work. You might have other blocks, but let's just stick with that one for now because that's where we started. Then you begin the work.
And now like you're doing something you've never done before. And so We have this bizarre expectation in the West, at least in the U.S., that you can do something perfectly when you've never done it before. But the truth is that you can't do anything perfectly if you haven't done it before. It's just not possible.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:49.553)
I mean, it's so many like A quote the other day about actually somebody about podcasts, and like, if you're just because your hundredth episode is going to be amazing doesn't mean your first one's going to suck any less. And like, so true. Like yes, absolutely.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (19:06.307)
Yeah. Right. So some of this is about the organizational level. Like you have to have an organization that says, hey, this is a beta. This is your first time or they have to give you like a coach or something who can be there to visit co-facilitate with you your first scrum or something like that. But let's either one of those is fine organizationally. But once you're in there, you also have to you have to live in the world. You're actually in when you're starting something new.
In the future, you may be able to like spin up a bunch of like fairy dust and make it look easy and effortless. But When it's the first time you're doing something, it's a whole lot better for everyone on the team if you say like, okay, friends, here we are. We've never done this before. You haven't done it before. I haven't done it before. I've been trained. I'm gonna do my best, but we need to talk about it. And we might stumble. And if you ever feel awkward, I just need you to tell me. That kind of, that's a psychological.
at the core of it, right? Some of it's just communication, but at the core of it, it's a psychological principle called mental contrasting. which is whether you're an individual or a group, If you admit at the outset that things are gonna go wrong, then you are not surprised or shook or worried or upset with each other when those things go wrong. So doing a little mental contrasting from the beginning, I might use the wrong words or I might not understand your process. And if that happens,
What are we going to do about it? That's what you do. You say, what's going to go wrong and how are we going to get around it? So do that as a group. When I misunderstand how quickly something's going to happen for you, because I haven't done your work before and you haven't done mine, how are you going to tell me that so we can stop and actually have the necessary conversation so we can get back on the same page? Now, when I say, well, you can do that in two days. So could you come back with your completed code in two days? The software designers don't go off and burn you in Effigy.
and then work around the clock to get it done and then come back and they're really mad at you, but they never told you that there was a problem with doing it. So some of that mental contrasting is helpful. And then when something does go down, because you can't catch everything ahead of time, otherwise, like things would be a whole lot better, then it's about having the skills. And again, sort of some of the same stuff, but it's about...
Dr. Amanda Crowell (21:27.286)
recognizing and talking about and trying to always ask the question like, what's really happening here? What are we, instead of getting caught up in how it's supposed to be, because you've never done before, so you don't really know how it's supposed to be. All you know is the like fairy tales people spin for you. From there, like, I've done it 100 times, let me give you some advice. And the advice is like so bad because they don't remember at all what it was like the first three times they did it, you know?
Dr. Amanda Crowell (21:55.03)
So I think it's like having those skills and like always bringing it back down to like, what are we hoping to accomplish? What do we, we really just want to get this piece of code launched into the system by this day. So if that's what we're really here to do, then all the rest of this that we're doing so badly, we can just kind of fumble through it and not take it so personally.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (22:19.573)
You know, as I was talking about, or thinking about this, this topic, the, the concept of beginning with the end in mind, right? Like what, what is ultimately where we're trying to, to go, if you focus on the path to get there might not be the path you thought it was at all. But as long as the path is still taking you to the place you wanted to get to, then you will ultimately be successful, even though you're taking a total right turn sometimes and some of the some of the things you're talking about.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (22:51.47)
What's, I think what's hard about that. And I think that like the reason why that isn't a panacea, right, begin with the end in mind, is that so much else is at play when people are working together, you know? So people want to look good while they're doing things. They want this guy, our fictional friend who got this big break to run the Scrum team, like he wants to look like a rock star. He wants these guys to like him. He wants his boss to think he did like a good,
by putting him in this role and he wants it to be the easiest rollout that any piece of software has ever had. And so like that expectation and then these guys brought in on this beta team they have expectations too. Maybe they're mad, maybe they think it worked fine how they were doing it before with their waterfall project management. They were totally fine with that. So what's the problem dude? So like sometimes like it's in that layer.
where starting something new, especially if you're doing it, when you're doing it with just yourself, you can do it with a notebook and like affirmations. When you're doing it with other people, you have to bring some, you have to make, in what an education we call making learning visible, we have to make the conflict, make the situation, we have to make it visible. And then we all have to agree that what we want more than anything is to get to the other side of this with our relationships and our sanity intact.
then let go of some of these other things that we don't even know are driving our behavior. The guy who's on the team and thought waterfall management was fine has been doing it for 50 years. And can we all just stop jumping on trends? That guy, you know, the veteran, we all know that guy. Like saying to him, I know that you hate every minute of this and I'm sorry, but we're doing it. So can we like, can we just pretend for a while? Like, can we be friends long enough to pretend? That kind of stuff is remarkably
Dr. Amanda Crowell (24:50.018)
helpful when a group of people is trying to do something for the first time. Maybe you're right. Maybe it will be bad, but we will not know that until three months from now when we've done our sprint. So can we, can we put our swords down for a minute? And now we're capable of beginning with the end in mind.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:09.181)
Yeah. You know, while you're talking about this, I'm also reminded that one of the biggest holdups that I hear about sometimes is people think, well, I haven't been trained in this thing or haven't had education is this thing that holds people back because they haven't been trained in it. And so there's this, there's this one train of thought that like, just do it, just try it. You won't know until you try like just start, just start. That's the theme.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:39.485)
make sure you get the training and education. And so there are people who do both. There's the people who are like, well, I'm gonna go back and get my master's first before I do this. Or they almost hide behind education. And then there's somewhere in the middle. How do you know what's the right level of education? education? Or is it really just start every time and get the education as you go? What do you say to that?
Dr. Amanda Crowell (26:03.746)
So I'm in an interesting position because I have the terminal degree. I have a PhD. I have a, you know, two bachelor's, two master's and a PhD. All of it. I'm like, oh yeah. But what's interesting is like I took it to its logical conclusion. I got all the possible education and I was still suffering through starting something new. And what I, where I land on that, because you know,
Dr. Amanda Crowell (26:30.294)
But the exact thing I was studying was cognitive psychology. Like how do we actually create our minds and change our minds is actually my area of expertise. How do we change our minds? And so what I've, here's what I, Here's the answer to your question as far as I'm concerned. If people's lives are at stake and it could go horribly wrong, get the education that you need period. I see a lot of like life coaches, no judgment. I'm just saying life coaches.
saying that they're qualified to help people with their trauma and they're not. And you can hurt people with that. OK, so like first and foremost, do not pretend to be a doctor and go and like give people surgery because you're like, I'll just figure it out. No, don't do that. OK, so now we've like we've named that. So Outside of that, out of like in the world that most of us actually live in. Right. Should I go and try Agile project management? Should I write a book?
Dr. Amanda Crowell (27:30.218)
Should I start a blog? Should I exercise? Should I like all the things? I think that you should, for your own sake, depending on the kind of person that you are, you should go learn a little something about it so you see how people talk about it. It's good to know the conversations that you're walking into. I find. That's helpful for me. But after that, instead, the real knowledge that you need is not knowledge, it's not facts, it's skills. right?
You need the ability to recognize you don't know something, ask the right questions, build up enough body of knowledge, move forward, recognize you're now on the edge of what you don't know, ask the right questions, move forward. That's the skillset. Can you develop expertise through conversation and know when you've reached the end? It's like an emergent thing. If you try to know everything before you start it, you can't.
But if you try to do it without knowing nothing, but did I say that right? If you try to do it while knowing nothing, you're also gonna waste a ton of time and people aren't gonna like that. So I think it's that space in the middle that you have to learn how to navigate, which if you have a degree of any kind, you probably have enough skill to read a few books, watch some YouTube videos, and then give something a try. If, you know, especially if that works, someone saw you and thought they could do that. Believe them and give it a shot.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:00.625)
Yeah. I think the, you know, I really like what you said also about the consequences or if somebody's going to get hurt or somebody's lives are at stake, then yes, but otherwise, try it. And I think that's really true is a lot of trying something new is the learning of going through it the first time. And if nobody's lives are at stake or no one's going to get hurt, and there's not a huge financial hardship that would come from,
Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:29.777)
you're not quite doing it right the first time. I think 90% of the trying something new that people are exposed to are things where there are not consequences. So give it a try. And like you said, you've got now there's AI, you can ask AI, you can look up YouTube videos, you can all the knowledge is out there on the internet. And if you're smart and you've got a college degree, you could probably go learn it. But you don't really know exactly what you need to learn until you start anyway. So it would start to take. Yeah. The wrong course completely.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (29:54.424)
No, you've wasted a lot of time.
Yeah, right. And you're like, I am fully informed about this thing that I will now never use. Well, and let me just say this, the other thing about improvement science that has been hugely helpful for me and all the people that I coach and, you know, it's built into the book is never one of the things that people do that sabotages their success when they're trying something new is they're like, okay, they're like, I would like to write an, and their dream is I would like to write a New York Times bestselling book, but they've never written anything. Right. So they're going
Dr. Amanda Crowell (30:27.15)
their magnum opus? That doesn't sound like a good idea. Why not instead start a blog? Write one blog. It's also about one of the things that is really getting at the right level of something that you, when you think about doing it, you know what to do today. You know what to do this week. You know what you can accomplish in 90 days. Then you're at the space where you can really
Like I would not recommend that somebody go off and fully implement getting things done, the full system of getting things done. Because it's huge, it's enormous, it's massive, it touches every aspect of your life. But you can pick a little part of it and get started on it and discover what there is to know about that piece and then add another piece and then add another piece. So starting much smaller than people think is reasonable is also a sort of magic trick to get a lot further.
a lot faster. You think it's gonna slow you down, but it speeds you up considerably.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:30.377)
Absolutely. It's the bite size thing. You gotta get it. You gotta get it down into do this little piece and then this little piece and that what is that? Oh man, what is it? Oh man, I can't remember who said it. It's the journey of a thousand steps begins. Yeah, wow. There you go. Begins a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step and then yes, start stepping.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (31:48.362)
Well, and if you're standing there thinking about a thousand miles, you're not going to go anywhere. Whereas if you're like, I could take one step, I don't want to, but I could. And then you do. You're like, huh, it wasn't so bad, you know, and then that emerging, what do I do now? What do I do now? What do I do now? Always stays in that manageable space and you don't overwhelm yourself because overwhelm stops you in your tracks for sure.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:12.785)
Yeah. Now, can we, you know, I want to Now let's shift the perspective just a little bit because a lot of what we've been talking about is kind of the employee perspective, right? You are the person doing the work and you're going to start this. Can we shift to the supervisor perspective now? So now you've got a team below you and there's somebody above you that you are reporting to. So now there is, there is somebody above you. You're a mid, you're a mid-level manager somewhere, or you're going to be.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:42.653)
and you've got a team below you and now your team is assigned this something new. How does that change the conversation for you, Amanda? Or does it?
Dr. Amanda Crowell (32:57.038)
I think that the manager, the number one thing that managers need to have in this world where the truth is everything's changing really fast all the time. Every manager's always got a team doing something new. So they have to be managers who are good at what they do, recognize that their team members are human beings. Then they have emotions and egos and worries.
And they've got these three mindsets that can get all tangled up. And they've got these histories with each other. And a manager is, you know, needs to be able to facilitate at the level of the group. So that, and structure things so that there's a humanitarian aspect to the way the team is structured. Like if you are starting something new as the manager, start it as a beta.
The work might not change at all, but calling it a beta will calm people down, make them start doing the mental contrasting work. And if you start every meeting with like, okay, so here's where we are, here's where we're going, how are you guys feeling? Like, what has run, what came up between you? And you know, it's one thing to, I often hear people have these like protocols and they're gonna like start the meeting with this question.
But if you don't mean it, if as the manager, you don't really mean it, if you say, how are you guys doing? And people say, dude, I'm dying. I don't know how to do this. If you don't actually, if you ask them that question, but they can't say that, then you failed at being a humanitarian manager, right? So I think managers need to.
develop their own skillset at the ability to ask people real questions and then handle the answers that they get back. And so there's lots and lots of tips and tricks. I've heard a lot of them on your podcast, right? Like, end your meetings early and ask them about their blockers. And all of those are really good tips. But I think at the core of it as the manager, if you're helping a group of people do something they've never done before, your job is to create a mindset at the group level that is, we don't know how to do this.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (35:19.414)
But you know what, dude, I know you can, but we wouldn't have brought you on this team. I'm asking you to do this hard thing. I'm asking you to trust me to facilitate it. I'm asking you to trust these people, whether you like them or not, that we can cross this finish line together. It might be messy, but we can do it. That's the kind of like, let's not pretend it's gonna be easy. Let's not pretend we're all gonna look like rock stars. If a manager can hold that and block up, protect their people.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (35:47.818)
so that when his boss looks down or her boss looks down on them, they look like rock stars. That's the magic of the manager. They hold the space for the mess here, but they have the reflection up so that the people look good. They might look like a mess, but their boss isn't seeing down into the mess at the team level. If you can do that, then people feel safe enough to really learn how to do something new.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:13.705)
Now, what about all the managers out there? And I mean, I've had them throughout my career and I know many, you listening probably have too. What about the ones that, let's talk about micromanaging a little bit. Like if they've never, I'm having two thoughts actually and I wanna make sure I cover them both. One is the micromanaging and the other is the manager who thinks they need to be an expert on it before their team can do it, right? There's a lot of managers that got promoted because they were really good at doing the job. And...
Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:43.081)
Yeah, so they're good individual contributor. And so now they've risen to manager. And so the only way they know how to be a rock star is by being an individual contributor. And that's a very different thing. So can we talk about those two for a second? Let's start with the micromanaging. Like, all right, so now things are, it's something new. What's the advice to the manager who's constantly, like there's, when is too much into the weeds, stay out of it, let them do it. And what is not enough like nothing's happening. What's your thoughts on that?
Dr. Amanda Crowell (37:13.086)
Mm-hmm. Well, the interesting thing about what you're saying is that you're really describing a manager doing something new for the first time.
Right? Because they were an individual contributor. Now they got this team and they're like, uh, the only, I can't do six people's worth of work. And that's the only skillset I have is to write amazing, fast, clean code. That's what I know how to do, for example, or whatever they're doing. Sell widgets. So when, so what we were really saying is a micromanager and the, I need to be an expert hyper like running themselves into the ground.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (37:48.458)
manager who's setting a terrible example for work-life balance for everyone else, those are the same person, really. There are people who don't have a skillset to create a team where people can work together because it's a completely different skillset. And they have to learn those skills. That's what they have to do. And it's the same set of things. A manager has to be able to say to their team, like, we're doing this and I'm gonna do my best, but I need you to talk to me. I need you to tell me what you need.
And I need you to tell me, because my tendency, I'll speak for myself when I'm in charge of something, my tendency is to get all up in it. I go all into the weeds. I don't think I'm a micromanager, but I would say I fall on that side, as opposed to the whatever, take the work off their plate. I'm like, we're going to do it together, right? We're going to do it together. And they're like, actually, I was going to do it. And I don't know what you're going to do, because you're the manager. And I'm like, ah. So.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (38:46.918)
That's like, that's a human being having the experience of doing something new and they have to recognize that manager has to recognize that they can't do their employees work and they need their employees to tell them when they, now is that manager, like we all live in the world, right? Like you can't actually say to that person, I need you to develop better people skills if you don't mind. It's like your boss.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (39:12.502)
So instead, like the question is like, what can the person do who has that micromanaging manager? And it's like, you know, it's all the old strategy. You have to manage up, you have to model. If you've got the skills, you're really just in relationship with that person. The hierarchy is an illusion anyways. So if you say to them, hey, I'm...
feeling like our relationship's a little bit strained and you're not sure I can do what you've asked me to do and that makes me feel bad. So can we talk about that? Like, what about this do you need to have your hands on? And what part can I have? And like, how can I communicate that with you? Sometimes it takes the courage to be the one who's not really in a position to manage and just manage up, manage around, try to be the voice for.
transparent communication, try to be the voice that recognizes what mindset block and where it's coming from. That's all any of us can do really, as people are knotted up and tangled and worried and feeling like they're barely surviving and exhausted, everyone's exhausted. Like in those kinds of environments, it's really just people in relationship with each other trying to accomplish a task.
If you can get it back down to that point and communicate about the rest of it, which is a very hard skillset, but a totally doable and workable one, then you can, you can, as the worker bee, transform the hive. If there's an appetite for it, if there isn't, then you may need to go somewhere where there's more of an appetite for it, or seek to be, you know, moved up and have more internal power to transform the hive or whatever. That is your question, I don't know. Felt unsatisfying.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (40:57.213)
Yeah. I mean, I mean, that kind of dove into the micromanaging part of things on, all right, how much is too much and how much is not enough. And for sure, what, what about the, so the, well, In today's day and age, you as a manager are often tasked to do new things, to take on more work, additional work. And you don't, It's not like they ask you when would be a good time.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:23.957)
or you to that doesn't exist, right? This is real life is, hey, three more things just hit us and you're gonna take on all three. So what about the, when you're looking at that scenario, the when it's a bandwidth issue or when is a good time or like, what do you say to, how do you be successful at starting something new when bandwidth is already tight? Or you don't. It's not the right time.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (41:54.938)
Mm-hmm. So I might have an unpopular opinion here. here. This might be where like the reality of if you want something to change, you have to change it. If nothing changes, nothing changes. right? And we live in an unsustainable work world. We just do. What you just said is what happens. However, If you say no, that takes a lot of courage and you have to be like in it to win it. You have to be like, I love this company. or I love my mental health or whatever it is that you need to ground down into to say like, if you're the manager of a team and someone comes and wants to put three new projects on your team, but they're already working and they're freaking the frick out, like they can't do anymore, the courage to say, I'm sorry, we don't have the bandwidth for it. It's not possible.
And that's where, and people are like, well, I'll get fired. No, you'll get promoted actually. Because it's the people who know their team, know their company, know their worth, know their work, who are saying like, this isn't possible. We have to do it a different way. Because if you just keep piling it on, we're gonna lose these people. And then we're gonna have even fewer people. And I'm gonna spend all my time hiring. And that's not gonna work. We've got the resources we need. These are the people we need. need. If you...
stress them out, they're going to leave. And then what are we going to do? So no, I won't do it. Now I won't do it. You know, like that's not exactly right, but it's saying like, We can't do it under these circumstances. What do you want to let go? What do you want to slow down? You know, I mean,
Brian Nelson-Palmer (43:38.273)
So that's the really important conversation that I feel like is missed oftentimes. It's easy to just say, well, you should say no. And the way that conversation actually sounds is more like, well, we can't do it right now. because here, let me, I'll never forget, I had a manager, it was a great idea. They had all of the projects that the team was working on listed on a board. on a whiteboard in their office. And so when the boss came in and said, hey, I wanna give you guys this and this and this, They said, we can do that, and cross off the three that we don't have to do anymore so that we can do that. or let me hire or and so that conversation, instead of saying, no, it's kind of more of a, well, not in the current situation, however, tell us how you want to shift it and then leave it up to the upper management. It's not your job to decide that it's ultimately going to be up to them who answer up anyway. So just, I don't know that the yeah.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (44:13.61)
I'm gonna go now. Okay.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (44:34.678)
Yeah. And I think that I think that's right. It is that conversation. And I think it's a conversation where
Dr. Amanda Crowell (44:46.006)
What are the, I think about this most of all at the individual level and how people end up extremely burned out, but teams burn out too, right? And it's like, we are like, I'm a team player, I'll keep giving, I'll keep giving, I'll keep giving. And you start out in the perfect world with like an 80% workload and a 20% buffer for the things that happened that you didn't anticipate. And then it's like, well, you can add this and this and this and you get up to 100% of a workload. And then you're like, well, what, there's nothing left to give, but you're like, but I'll find it. And you...
Dr. Amanda Crowell (45:15.83)
You give up your weekends and you give up your mornings and you give up your afternoon, you give up your middle of the night, you're checking your email. And the reality is that there is an actual bandwidth. And we've given all of our mental health, all of our free time, all of our everything to it. And now you will end up in the hospital. Like you will end up in the hospital and then you won't do anything. You'll be on medical leave.
So it's a system that's like pretending there are no resource problems is not a healthy system. And so when you think about it at the like senior management level, and they're just like, well, just, they're just cracking the whip. Well, then they end up with an unhealthy toxic system where people don't stay and they leave and they have all that churn cost. But if you have actually managers who are like, we wanna have a healthy system. We don't want people to leave. We want our people to be...
at all creative, right? Cause nothing new is coming out of these people if they're this exhausted, then the conversation has to pull back down into 80%. And nobody's gonna do it if every single person in the rank and file or on the front lines is like, well, just keep piling it on. Cause I have to, because I'm afraid, because I don't wanna lose my job because I'm in the hierarchy. You know what I mean? So where, who draws the line?
Well, I'll tell you who draws the line for me, me. I'm not doing it. And that's where we all, I'll be in relationship with you. I'll be on your team. I'll think big about how our team can accomplish this. But will I sacrifice my mental health for this job? I will not. So either fix the system or I'm gone. And that I think is where we actually are right now in the world of work. But we don't have really the skills yet to navigate it, but we're gonna have to have them soon.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (47:12.049)
Absolutely. And I think this conversation is important, like you said, for me individually, and for me as a supervisor and with a team, like that, it happens at all levels, right? I mean, I talked about my manager who had the whiteboard with the team's things. But then when your boss comes to you individually and says, hey, I need you to take on these three things, you've got your own whiteboard and you point to your whiteboard personally and say, well, here's the 25 other things that I'm working on. So which three would you like me to drop in order to take this on? Because I can't, and so that kind of real conversation, man, definitely it's, I love what you said too, about 80%, like you need to operate at this level so that you can, you do have a little bit of give where you can push it higher, but you can't just run 100% all the time, it's not sustainable, you end up in the hospital. It's true.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (47:48.15)
real conversation is what it is. Cause sometimes you do, you truly do, I did. And I think like the interesting thing about like the whiteboard analogy, is it's like some, we live in such a data-driven world. People are like, if you can point to the data, then you can have what you want. But human beings are not data-driven. And so sometimes the data you need to point to is, I hear what you were saying. I might cry right now, which tells me that I'm extremely exhausted. I have not had a weekend. I have not had...
I have not gone home and watched TV and I honestly cannot take on any more work because I feel terrible. And a good, this is where it all comes together. A good manager can hear that as a data-driven conversation. The data of myself, I'm tired, I can't do anymore. We just ran to meet this deadline that you said was critical. And now you're saying there's another critical deadline. We have to have a break. A manager...
hears that and says, my people are tired, they need a minute. You're not gonna get this next week, you're gonna get it in two weeks and that's just how it is. So it's about like allowing sort of the whiteboard of our emotions and our experiences and our life to be data worth listening to at the team level too.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (49:23.749)
You know, and I think you're alluding to my last question I wanted to ask you was about what does this mean for you personally, Amanda? What's your story? I mean, you seem like you're speaking with a lot of experience with this and you shared earlier about all your degrees and diplomas and that's awesome. But what does this mean for you personally Amanda?
Dr. Amanda Crowell (49:43.55)
Yeah, well, so the history of it is that I got my PhD and was going to be a professor and then decided that was a little too. I work mostly with schools and I really love helping schools make change so that students like I feel like we have all this untapped potential, these students who aren't getting the support that they need. And if they just did like we'd have the answer to every question we need. Right. The information is not what we need. It's always in the implementation.
So that was very powerful to me. I thought, well, let me go work with these schools. And I started doing consulting. And while I was doing consulting, that's a quintessential, you don't understand what my life is like, Amanda. I have 14 clients, they don't talk to each other. They're all, it's all urgent. It has to be done by the end of the school year. And now it's June. Everything has to be done or we're gonna lose all our money. And I was, I totally bought it, hook, line and sinker. I was like okay, I, the kids lives are on the lines. I'm in it to win it. Like I will sacrifice myself. And I did end up in the hospital having like a heart attack that turned out to be a panic attack. And I had to, that's the impetus of really stopping and saying like, this can't be the way. I can't sacrifice myself. The subtitle of my book is do what matters most without sacrificing everything else. Because I started to think you couldn't do both. You couldn't be in it to solve the world's problems and help the world's people and make a difference and make things good and not sacrifice every single part of yourself in order to do it. The Gestalt, the Zeitgeist says that you can't do both. But I discovered in the 10 years or so of like recalibrating my own stance in the world and the way I interact with people and the way I project manage just a lot of productivity stuff, you know, in the book, that actually
you do much better, much more great work when you aren't sacrificing everything else. And we live in a, listen, you've mentioned AI. AI has the common knowledge locked up. It will tell it to you in six sentences flat. How do we do this? Here's how. You can't pretend like that's what we need. So it has to, we have to change the way we understand the human beings relationship to the world of work. Our job is not to be
these factual doers, our job is to manage the flow of information and to be sources of creativity. We can't do that if we're exhausted, miserable all the time. That's what I discovered anyways, is that when I stopped running on fumes all the time, I was able to do everything I ever wanted to do. I built a massive coaching business while still working a full-time job. I wrote a book and I started a podcast and I don't know, like got...
healed my relationship with my family, which I'd gotten deeply stressed. And like, I'm the only person who can say for sure that I did those things, you know, outside of the book, which you could read. But what I know, my lived experience of it is totally different. On the one hand, I was like grasping, you know, like Daffy Duck in the desert, you know, like, I'm, I just don't know the whole of the time. Versus like, I don't know, Roger Rabbit? No, not Roger Rabbit. Who's the rabbit?
Bugs Bunny, Bugs Bunny, who's like jazzing it up wearing like, you know, like a big hat.
You know, I'd rather be Bugs Bunny. I don't need to be all exhausted in the desert anymore. And everything I wanted, the way that I work, the work that I do is much better. People like working with me more. I get way more opportunity, way more money. It's drastically changed my life, which is why I wrote the book. You know, like I was like, let me help people understand how to do this. But it takes a big leap. People don't believe you. But then you write a book and then they read it and they try it and then they believe you.
So give it a shot is my point. That's what it means to me, Brian.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (53:43.777)
Total. Give it a shot, man. I well and it is the when you reach. Unfortunately, many people have to go all the way to the breaking point to actually recognize that something's got to change. Something's got to give and that something isn't just turning off your email at four o'clock every day. That's a piece of it. You're right. All that knowledge is I mean AI could probably solve all your problems if you actually did what it said anyway.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (54:23.254)
Yeah, Great Work is the main title. Here it is. Ta-da, it's also on the wall back there. Do what matters most without.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (54:27.093)
Got it. She's holding up the image. Very cool. Yeah. I will. I'll keep the, I'll drop the link in the comments for you of your episode for sure. So they can find it. And now if folks want to keep in touch with you, where's the best place? What are the best ways?
Dr. Amanda Crowell (54:40.69)
I would boogie on over to my website, which is amandakroll.com. I'm sure that'll be in the show notes too. And just sign up for the email list. I send an email usually once a month, sometimes twice a month, depending on if there's an ad, like an event or something. Um, that's how, and you can listen to the podcast and read the book, read the book, book. That's the thing to do. Um, and I want, is it okay? I just wanted to say one thing about what you said about, like, we don't want people to get to the breaking point. Before they actually start making a change. I've heard you say this on the podcast a few times, your podcast, this one. I say this, this is what I say about that. Sometimes it's hard not to do it if you haven't hit the breaking point. Here's what I would say, accept that you've hit the breaking point because everybody feels like they have. I can't do this anymore, they say. Right, yes, because I'm here. Let that be your breaking point. Don't go to the hospital. Just be like... my kid's mad at me for missing their birthday. Let that be the breaking point. Let it turn you around. It's just a choice in your mind to do that.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (55:46.473)
Yeah. That's a, that's a powerful one that you're already at the breaking point. If you're, if you're hearing this and you're wondering if you're at the breaking point, that's actually breaking point. Gosh, so much. Absolutely. Well, Amanda, here's what I love. I love that because of you hitting the breaking point, you now have this book and you've continued to do all of this work and you're sharing this awesome knowledge. You and I are very much aligned on these, these ideas. I think we agree more than we disagree on a lot of these things. And I, and I, so it's an absolute, I feel like you and I can continue talking for hours and we can't, we're not going to do that to you listening, but it is such a treat to have you. Thank you very much for, for joining us today and for sharing some of that. And I hope that you do check out the book and check out great work and think about the great work you can be doing. If you recognize that you're already at your breaking point, that's powerful.
Dr. Amanda Crowell (56:43.478)
There you go. Yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (56:45.429)
So, Amanda, I love that. And for you tuning in, two quick opportunities for you. The first one is if you have a friend or colleague who is at that breaking point or also is looking to start something new, because that's what we talked about today. If you've got a colleague who's interested or hitting that point, if you would share this episode link to this one specifically with them. I know Amanda and I would both love that because we're really interested. This, a lot of times it's great to say, hey, check out Productivity Gladiator the show or something, but it's also the conversation that happens when you send someone an actual episode is a really cool connection that gets to happen where you can talk about that and you can actually bond with that person. And I personally, I love that. I do that with people all the time. And so that's my invitation to you listening is certainly send, I know Amanda and I both would love if you would send this to a friend or colleague who you think would benefit from this. And thank you so much for.
subscribing to and liking subscribing the comments and stuff. I read them all. And if you want, I also have an email list, so I'll get Amanda's email list and my email list in the comments of this thing so that you can join because I definitely send out those emails as well. So I love sharing Predictivity Gladiator with you. That's a wrap.