Dissecting a Winning Elevator Pitch, with Elevator Pitch Champion Chris Westfall

The Video

The Audio/Podcast

Short Summary

 
 

Chris Westfall joins Brian on the show to dissect what it is that makes a winning elevator pitch. He is a regular contributor to Forbes, the author of The NEW Elevator Pitch, and one of the most sought-after business coaches & keynote speakers in the world.

Content Overview

You step onto the elevator heading up to the corporate event, only to find yourself face-to-face with the CEO of the company. “What do you do here?” she asks. Your mind goes blank. You fumble over your words, unsure of what to say or how to make your role sound impressive. The doors open and your opportunity is lost before you can even begin your pitch.

We’ve all been there. The elevator pitch scenario can be intimidating and nerve-wracking. However, mastering the art of an authentic, compelling elevator pitch can be a game-changer for advancing your career. Follow these tips to create elevator pitches that open doors instead of letting them shut.

It’s Not a Pitch, It’s a Conversation

The most common mistake with elevator pitches is treating them like a sales pitch. You try to squeeze in as much persuasive information as possible in a few floors’ time. But elevator pitches work best when you approach them as starting a conversation, not delivering a monologue.

Your goal is to get the other person to say “Tell me more” or pose a question to continue the dialogue. You want to open the door for an ongoing discussion, not force feed them a persuasive speech. So slow down, take a breath, and focus on authentic interaction.

Start with Common Ground

Since the elevator pitch opens a conversation, begin by establishing common ground. Is there a shared goal or truth you both recognize? Use your knowledge of the person or their company to start with something easy for them to agree with.

For example, you could say “I know you’re focused on improving client retention this quarter...” This statement shows you understand their priorities and goals. Now you have a natural jumping off point to highlight how you can contribute.

Share Unexpected Information

After establishing common ground, you need to catch their interest with something unexpected. Help them see you or your idea in a new light by sharing information they likely don’t know already.

One way to do this is talk about a recent success or accomplishment and how you achieved it. You could also share news of an innovative approach you’ve taken lately. The goal is sparking their curiosity to learn more.

Ask for Permission

Don’t barrage them with an info dump. Wrap up your initial elevator pitch by asking for permission to follow up, like “Would you be open to discussing this more after the event?” This keeps the conversation door open rather than shutting it by talking too long.

Even if they don’t agree to talk later, asking permission positions you as respectful of their time and interested in an actual dialogue.

Focus Outward, Not Inward

When nerves kick in, it’s easy to get lost talking about yourself and come across as self-promoting (rather than audience-serving). Combat this tendency by focusing your pitch on how you can contribute value to the listener and their goals.

Talk about the positive outcomes or impact you can create for them, not just the features of your product or service. Demonstrate you’ve thought deeply about their needs to position yourself as a partner.

Find Your Unique Perspective

There may be many other people with similar roles and offerings to you. How do you stand out? The answer lies in finding what’s uniquely meaningful about your experiences.

Maybe you come from an unusual background that informs your approach. Or you’ve leveraged past failures into insights. Think about what distinguishes you and use that as the hook that grabs their interest.

Be Authentic and Real

Don’t rely on canned scripts or stock phrases in your elevator pitch. This forces you into stiff, inauthentic communication. Instead, focus on being real. Slow down your thoughts, get grounded, and speak from the heart.

Your genuine passion and personality are what elevate you above others pitching the same thing. Don’t hide them away.

Put It Into Practice

Finally, start practicing elevator pitches in lower stakes encounters, like professional mixers or networking events. Notice what intrigues listeners versus what makes their eyes glaze over. Seek insights from trusted colleagues on how you can improve.

Pay attention to body language and listening cues to become a more engaging, responsive communicator. With time and effort, you can turn the elevator pitch from dreadful to downright captivating.

The elevator pitch presents a valuable opportunity to make a great first impression. Follow these tips to transform shallow sales pitches into meaningful conversations that advance your relationships, career, and goals. Take the time to craft an authentic elevator pitch and discover the doors it opens.

Episode Key Takeaways

For Employees

  • Open your pitch with something that’s honest, and true, and doable, which they will agree with. The most powerful pitch is the one that’s honest and true.

  • Next: Share something that’s unexpected, surprising, innovative, or counterintuitive.

  • Last, some new information that will make them say, “tell me more”.

  • The higher above you that you pitch, the more simple the concepts need to be, don’t get down in the weeds, zoom out to a level that’s honest and true for both of you at both of your levels.

For Front Line Supervisors and Middle Managers

Only difference between a pitch as an employee vs a pitch as a manager is to constantly remember “service”.

  • It’s constantly in terms of “impact”.

  • “With these resources, here’s what I’d be able to do for you…”

  • “I’ve thought this through” and come prepared to share the thoughts.

The elevator pitch just starts the conversation, and gets permission to tell them more later.

Videos of Pitches Referenced In This Episode

Today’s Guest

CHRIS WESTFALL
US National Elevator Pitch Champion, Author, Coach

Chris Westfall is an entrepreneur, business coach, and is recognized as the US National Elevator Pitch Champion.

A regular contributor to Forbes, and the author of four books - plus a ghostwriter for six more - he specializes in helping bring new stories to life. His titles include easier, Leadership Language and The NEW Elevator Pitch.

Chris has helped launch over five dozen businesses, and has appeared on ABC NEWS, NBC TV and CNN. He has worked with thousands of leaders at Fortune 500 companies, non-profit organizations and high-tech startups. He regularly consults with top-tier universities. and is a coach to entrepreneurs and executives around the globe. His clients have appeared on Shark Tank, Dragon’s Den and Shark Tank-Australia.

Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/westfallonline/

Website: http://westfallonline.com

Forbes: http://bit.ly/Forbes-CW

YouTube: http://youtube.com/westfallonline

Books online:

Socials: @westfallonline

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About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. I teach overworked project managers how to level-up their life balance and pump up their practical productivity through my Productivity Gladiator training system. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat! Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

 

Episode Transcript

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer on this show. I talk about life balance and personal practical productivity skills. And in this episode, we're dissecting a winning elevator pitch. And on the show with me today is Chris Westfall. Now, Chris, you've written a book on this topic. We're about to talk about elevator pitches. So for those of, for those people, for you who aren't, might not be familiar with Chris, what, talk about your experience and your, what's your cred with elevator pitches?

Chris Westfall (01:37.889)

Well, you know, when somebody says, tell me a little bit about yourself, the way that you answer that question is called an elevator pitch or an elevator speech. And, uh, and by the way, I've, I want to say thanks for having me here. Uh, and when it comes to elevator pitches or elevator speeches, it's really a way to introduce a person or a product like you see on Shark Tank or an idea. And a few years back, I was actually recognized Brian as the U S national elevator pitch champion.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:08.606)

Oh, stop. What does that mean? Does that mean you and a bunch of other people like competed a bunch of elevator pitch nerds and then all of a sudden you got a trophy? What happened?

Chris Westfall (02:18.297)

It's true. There were 40 of us in an elevator. It was very, no. What happened was there was, there was a national contest and it was opened up to see who had the best two minute speech in the country and you could speak about anything. And so I entered into this contest and you had to record a video, gain votes on social media. And I went through the experience. And when the voting came through, I actually came in second place in the voting and an entrepreneur from Atlanta actually won.

But the folks that put this contest together, watched all of the videos and they reached out to me and they said, Chris, listen, we've watched all of the videos, you're second place in the voting, but first place in the competition, you are the national elevator pitch champion. And that recognition was, Brian, that was what changed everything for me. And from that place, I said, you know, well, what am I gonna do? Okay, I could rest on my laurels of this odd sort of award that nobody seems to understand or...

I could turn this into something of value. I could take what I've been given and the recognition that I've received and see what I might be able to do for others. So looking in the direction of service, I turned this award into a consulting practice, a coaching business, as well as multiple books that I've written that always carry this thread or this theme of how do you create not just the elevator pitch that matters, but the conversation that matters.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:44.838)

Yeah. Oh, and I got to tell you, Chris, I have been so excited to talk with you about this topic specifically, because I especially with my show and we, you know, we talk the crowd and the people that I like to talk to on this show are definitely employees and frontline supervisors and middle managers and those folks. And I think often people think about elevator pitches as something they use on Shark Tank, but this is something that actually applies like every day consistently. You can use it all of the time.

So what's before we dive into that topic though, one thing that I wanted to ask, there are a lot of, I love asking guests this. And so I want to ask you to, there's a lot of people who bill themselves as experts on different types of things. And so there's certainly other people who might've written books or blog posts or whatever about elevator pitches. So what would you say makes you different from the other folks who put themselves out as some sort of expert on elevator pitches?

Chris Westfall (04:42.229)

probably the results of my clients that I would point to. I mean, if anyone comes in, comes to you and says, I'm a, I'm a coach and I, you know, I have an expertise and I'm a self-appointed guru or whatever it is that they're going to say, what you have to look at is not what they're doing, what they're saying or what they're publishing. You have to look at what their clients are doing. And over the years, I've been super fortunate, Brian, I've worked with some really, really bright and talented entrepreneurs as well as people. who are in the corporate game, who are looking to move forward, who are looking to create conversations that matter so that they can, you know, create promotions, create greater impact, et cetera, et cetera. But I've, I've coached clients of mine onto television shows like shark tank, uh, dragons den. That's what they call shark tank in Canada, shark tank Australia. Uh, I've been a part of raising over $350 million from investors and counting. Yeah. Which, I mean, that's, look, that's not all the money in the world, but like I say, my clients have, they've done well and I'm thrilled to be a part of that success. This past spring, I coached four teams in the South by Southwest pitch competition in Austin, came away with four first place trophies for, for the categories, including best in show. So I coached the team that was the best of the best at, at South by. And then this past, well, I guess it was in May, I coached the team that won the rice business plan competition. And that's the largest and most lucrative college competition of its kind in the world. So like I say, I, I don't know. I, I'm nobody special. I'm a guy. I'm a, I'm a fellow traveler who's looking in the direction of what, what stories and conversations are going to create the greatest impact. And how do we show up differently inside of Q and a, how do we, how do we step up and show up when the stakes are high, when the conversation really, really matters? That's where I can be of service to people. And the results that my clients have, have created have been just, it's been an honor, a privilege to work with some very, very brilliant, brilliant clients over the years.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (06:47.374)

Gosh, well after that intro, now I'm dying to know what you have to say. So let's tell, let's talk about it. Chris talk about. So first of all, first and foremost, please dissect with us. What is, what makes a good elevator pitch? And by the way, I should back up for a second. The scenario, I'm assuming you listening, you know what an elevator pitch is, but

What we're really talking about here is that the scenario is you jump on the elevator with someone who you need something from, or can help you in some way, or you don't know and you need to introduce yourself to. And the idea is you just have the time when you're on the elevator from when you start to when you get off on their floor, when they get off or you get off the elevator, you have that call it 30 seconds to two minutes, whatever that very short timeframe is to communicate what you need to communicate and get the result that you're hoping to get. So when we're talking about elevator pitch, that's

That's how I'm approaching it. Is that when you talk, discuss elevator pitches, is that track with what you were thinking, Chris?

Chris Westfall (07:44.645)

It is that's Brian. What you're kind of describing is the construct or the way that we traditionally think of an elevator pitch. But the, the thing that really is useful, if you want to turn the elevator pitch from a construct into something that's a powerful career tool is to look at it, not as a pitch, but as a conversation. And so if you write, because, because look, if we're in this mythical elevator, we, you know, we've got, what do we have 30 seconds to, you know, and that kind of pressure, nobody works well with a gun to their head. Nobody works well under pressure. And if you go, wow, I got to bust this out in 30 seconds. I've got to tell this person my life story from birth up till yesterday, or, you know, and you'll end up shotgunning ideas. And what really helps is to understand that the elevator pitch, it's not a pitch, Brian. It's a conversation. And just because somebody gets off the elevator doesn't mean that conversation ends. So what this means is a couple of things. First of all, if you want to know if you've got a great elevator pitch, it's not judged by what you say or how fast you say it or how much information you can dump in a certain time frame. It's about what your listener does when you're done. It's about finding a path to these three words. Tell me more in some form or fashion, tell me more. This idea that what you have said is interesting. It is compelling. It is, it's intriguing. And if you watch Shark Tank, you see that the folks that are successful, they create in that initial pitch, something that makes the shark say, tell me more. And in, so, and that's the other thing that we can observe from Shark Tank is that all of those pitches are won and lost in Q and A. They're won and lost in a conversation, not in some rehearsed speech, right? So people think there's just some misconceptions around the elevator pitch. They think it's short, so I got to just show up and throw up. How much can I dump into this quick? No, that's not what it's about. It's about slowing down, being deliberate, and choosing the words that are going to help you most so that you can create that tell me more because what everybody, nobody wants to be pitched, but everybody's interested in a conversation. Everybody's interested in having a dialogue, a dialogue around value or innovation. And that's, that's as true for entrepreneurs as it is for folks who are in management, who are leading teams, who are trying to make an impact in their careers. Your success starts with your story. And that's, that's really the framing that I think is most valuable.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:27.918)

I love what you said about that with the, it does take some of the pressure off when you think about it more as a conversation and less as the high stretch, high stress pitch. So I like that a lot. And I'm also thinking about...

I personally like being a podcast host and I used to be a radio DJ and a radio show host and in all of those, I'm very used to asking questions and I like asking questions. And one of the things I've noticed is sometimes if you start with a question, my normal MO in a normal situation would be to ask them a question. But when you're in an elevator pitch situation, if you ask them a question and they're long winded, they're going to get off on their floor and you will not have accomplished whatever. It is so dissect a little bit about, OK, there is something to it's not just a conversation. Like there's a little. So what it dissect a little bit about what do you recommend for folks when they're looking at, OK, how do you initiate or do a good elevator pitch?

Chris Westfall (11:23.541)

Well, when you think about it, an elevator pitch or let's, let's just boil it down. Let's simplify it. A conversation is really a word problem. And what I mean by that is it's not about, you know, learning how to speak English or, but it is about choosing the words that are going to help you most. And also as we know from math back in the day, the way that you set up the word problem is what helps you to succeed at it. So when you think about this conversation that you want to have, this pitch, this idea that you want to move forward, what is it that you can say that is going to be of greatest service? And I'll say that again, service to the person right in front of you. Because an elevator pitch that is self-serving, self-absorbed, self-conscious, you see where I'm going with that? That's not the approach that I advocate because walking into some pitch situation saying, I did this and I do that and I can, I can make this happen and I can, it's like, well, bravo. Good for you. Is this a superhero story? Are we just going to listen and hear about your accomplishments? Or what is it that people are really listening for? What are they really looking for? It's the same thing that people are looking for in this podcast. They're looking for service. They're looking for ideas that they can take and turn into action. And if that is the way that you set up the word problem of your elevator pitch, and just to reiterate, Take your eyes off the timer. Don't feel like it has to be one thing or the next thing before you get to the 33rd floor, whatever it is, whatever obligations you're putting on it, step back from that and give yourself permission to be of service. And if I may, Brian, I'm going to refer back to something that you said, because it's absolutely brilliant. I'm sure we're going to have a verbal fist fight a little bit later, but for right now, I'm going to tell you what you said was absolutely brilliant. Start with a question. And you know, there's some people that, you know, they want to play 20 questions. They're like, well, what would it mean to you if, you know, and you're like, ah, come on, that's, that's not 20 questions, but a rhetorical question can be really, really useful to get people thinking, to get people to consider what it is that you're going to share. And I advocate pointing people in the direction of, well, of the thing that makes a really, really good pitch. And if you think about it, a successful pitch, and this is, this is terrible English. I apologize in advance, but this is, this is the best I got. A good pitch is a series of yeses. In other words, it, you see what I mean? It's a series of agreements. And of course, no, no is sometimes a detour on the road to yes, but a good pitch is a series of yeses.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:05.838)

So we're talking about that, some of that concept. And I mean, I worked in sales for a bit. And so, you know, the concept of getting people to start saying yes, because that keeps the momentum going. So they get into the habit of saying yes. So when you said rhetorical questions, you're asking questions that will most likely have a response of yes. Does it lead? Is that kind of what you're driving at? It leads to then when you make a request or like when you have a potential solution, they're already going. Yes, I have these problems. I see your solution or tell me more.

Chris Westfall (14:39.213)

Correct. You're on the right track. Oh, look at that. You're quick. You're pretty quick.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:41.406)

You look at, you see, I gotcha. I'm onto this. See, tell me more. You got me going already, Chris. I love it. All right, yeah.

Chris Westfall (14:50.05)

Well, you're demonstrating something that's really interesting is that if that question comes from a place of sincere curiosity, that's where you want to start. You're not playing a game of gotcha. You're not trying to come in and, you know, say something like, you know, if I said you had a great body, would you hold it against me? Come on.

That's I've, no, no. I've listened to a lot of bad pitches. Um, but.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (15:10.67)

Chris, tell me, have you ever tried that line? Have you really? Be honest, have you? Okay, all right. Where did you get that from? Where did you hear that?

Chris Westfall (15:25.361)

You know what to play? You know what to play a game of gotcha? You want to look and it's not just about, some sort of verbal manipulation where you're like, well, if okay, if I ask them this question, then they'll do this and I can get them to, and you're trying to be like a puppet master pulling strings on people. Start with a question that looks in the direction of something that's universal, something that's relatable, something that all God's children, no matter which God they worship, all God's children know to be true. What is something that is that universal yes? And I can give you an example. I mean, one quick example would be, doesn't it seem like we all want a sense of family and belonging? And you go, and you know, look, you may hear that and you go, boy, that sounds a little form of family and belonging. I wouldn't say it that way. Well, good, I'm just, this out comes across for me. What do I know? Take these ideas and make them your own. Right, right, take these ideas and make them your own. But this idea, we all want a sense of family and belonging. There's no one in the world that goes, uh-uh. Everybody sees that. Doesn't it seem like we all want a sense of safety in the workplace?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:13.094)

Right. That's the way it works in your head.

Chris Westfall (16:32.297)

I mean, even if you work in an explosive factory, you want a sense of safety in the workplace. You see what I mean? And these are, yeah, that's where you wanna start.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:38.286)

true story. I see what you mean.

So, so what's, you know, I think one of the things that's really helpful, I'm picking up what you're putting down as far as like, okay.

where you're, you're wanting curiosity, make it a conversation. You're not coming off as too chauvinistic. I really like some of the things we've talked about so far. And for me, it's always helpful to have sort of examples. So I've got a couple of fun scenarios that I kind of want to ask you, okay, what would you say or what's your advice in this scenario? But the first one, tell us a real story of, I'm kind of curious on what is the best elevator pitch you've ever been involved in or a part of. What comes to mind if I ask that?

Chris Westfall (17:20.937)

Well, I was really thrilled with what I saw at the Rice Business Plan competition this year. I was working with a scientist who had invented an amazing new technology around magnetic gears. Magnetic gears. And you know how like gears when they, you know, they have teeth and cogs and when they, they torque too, too far, they, those teeth can break. And then you've got, you know, that's how your transmission's busted. That's

That's a real problem. Well, with magnetic gears, they, they're magnets. So, so nothing ever touches it. They're frictionless. And this technology is super slick and NASA is all over it because not only are these, these magnetic gears, they're, they, not only do they have higher reliability, but they're also lighter weight. Um, so, so think about, you know, lunar modules, think about spacecraft. I mean, all kinds of things that NASA is just super excited about this technology. And so I met this scientist and, uh, absolutely brilliant. I mean, Brian, I can't even begin to tell you how bright this guy is. But like a lot of really smart people, he had a challenge of simplifying this story. And he wanted to go into the details. And why wouldn't he? Because he's a scientist. That's what he looks into. And maybe there's people out there, maybe you're listening to this and you're thinking, well, yeah, my job is based on details too. And my credibility comes from the details. Well, I'm here to tell you that credibility in a pitch comes from relatability. And if you can't make a complex story relatable, you don't really understand it. And that's not just me saying that, that's a version of what Einstein said. If you can't boil it down to its simplest form, you don't really understand it. And so what we worked on was crafting a kind of understanding that helped translate this scientist's brilliance into something that an audience of hundreds of judges. The Rice Business Plan has hundreds of judges that evaluate 42 teams from all over the world. It was just an extraordinary experience. But watching him, and let me tell you specifically what made it an amazing pitch. A couple of things. He had a partner and she stood up and was talking about the usefulness of these magnetic gears on the moon, on the dark side of the moon in a lunar rover. And she said to the audience, well, think about it. You know, and you're like, whoa, this is lofty. This is, you are literally in outer space. Yes, that's true. But imagine if you are in a lunar rover and your gears seize up, you can't call an Uber. And that's exactly what she said. And the audience instantly went, we get it. We understand. And it is, it was that understanding that I think, and it's hard for me to, I mean.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:50.626)

Wow.

Chris Westfall (20:18.441)

What's your favorite pitch? It's like saying, what was your favorite kiss? They were all pretty good. But this pitch, what was... Ha ha ha.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:27.459)

Chris, I'm sensing a theme here. You had a pick-up line reference. Now it's about kissing. I see you're all about the sensual, emotional side of this thing. Alright, I'm picking up what you're putting down here.

Chris Westfall (20:36.985)

I'd tell you what, what can I tell you, man? I've been married to a redhead for a long time and she walks on the ground I worship. She walks on the ground I worship. Anyway, but, so back to, but back to the dark side of the moon and back to you can't call an Uber if your gear sees up. When I knew that this pitch was at its absolute best was when in the middle of,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:44.746)

Oh, spicy. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to derail. That was really funny. Okay, so, right.

Chris Westfall (21:03.329)

By the way, I've been rehearsing with this team and I know their shtick and I know the spiel and I've seen the slides and all this stuff. And the lead presenter, the scientist, he goes off script. He goes off script and he says, we're working on a special project right now and I can't tell you what it is, but it rhymes with Schmeiper Sonic Schmissle. And I about fell out of my seat. I'm like, you're kidding me that you just landed a joke.

And I'm not saying it's a good one, but he did that. He goes Schmeiper Schmonic Schmissle. And I'm like, where did that come from? But here's why, here's why this silly story stands out for me, because he was loose. He was loose enough to crack wise. And I'm not, again, I'm not saying it's the funniest thing I've ever heard and he should be a comedian, but it was unexpected. And the best pitch is unexpected. The best pitch is when you are not locked into a script when you're not trying to be memorized, but when you're trying to be of service. And sometimes having a sense of humor about sophisticated science separates you from the pack. It's, it's a mark of true distinction. And it was his, it was his flexibility and his confidence combined with the way that he handled Q and a that makes me give this guy some mad props today on your podcast for the best pitch.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (22:28.27)

That's awesome. And so just out of curiosity, is this pitch we've just talked extensively about it compared it to kissing. It sounds pretty enticing now. So if I is this like, is there a video of this somewhere that I could link for people or

Chris Westfall (22:41.326)

Absolutely. I'll send it to you and you can, you can drop it in and they can see, uh, exactly who these folks are and what they did. And I think it's very inspiring and his, his partner, uh, she, she is amazing as well. She had never pitched before we started working together. We worked together for two months and together these two went and one, they raced past teams from Harvard, Yale. MIT, BYU, Stanford, Northwestern, and every other, I mean, 42 schools from all over the United States. It was quite a journey. Let me tell you, my friend, it was great to see.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (23:11.74)

That's amazing.

Okay. All right. So best pitch, man. All right. Well, I'm looking forward to checking out that video. I'll make sure I drop that in the, in the episode notes so that you can, you can watch it here too. But what's the, so let's do some scenarios real quick because I think this is really helpful. Right. So let's say that I'm an employee and I'm a, I'm a project manager and I need resources, whether that be FTE or a little bit of funding for something on one of my projects. And I end up in the elevator with my boss. What would you, if you were coaching someone in that scenario, what would you say goes into that elevator pitch?

Chris Westfall (23:51.733)

first thing I'd ask him is what is something that your boss knows absolutely to be true? Not a matter of faith or belief, not a matter of geography or educational experience. What is it that your boss knows to be true with a capital T? And something that shows up for me in that direction, just to kind of give you an example and take from concepts to reality, because that's what you're going for. You need resources to generate revenue.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (24:20.014)

Okay. Yep.

Chris Westfall (24:21.573)

And I don't, I don't know if there's somebody out there that's, that's hearing that and going, I'd like to argue with that guy about that. But how do you, how do you generate revenues with that? Right. It's, it's the simple saying you have to spend money to make money. Right. So if that's true, looking in the direction of, um, something that is non-threatening but curious would be the place where you might find a start. You know,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (24:43.658)

So is that, there's two things, when I think of things that are absolutely true, it could be bad or it could be good. Is there like, would it be, for example, something that's absolutely true is, would it be bad if we failed this project? That of course is absolutely true. But then there's also the, you know, you could also do something along the lines of, would it be a highlight if we were successful in this project? And that would be a little more positive slang. Do you specify between the positive and the negative absolutely true?

Chris Westfall (25:11.733)

You want to sound real, neither positive nor negative would be what I would advocate. And I'll tell you why. And maybe some insurance agents or actuaries are listening to this and going, no, we want to, we want it to be negative. We want it to be very scary. Um, because I mean, think about it. I mean, it is absolutely true. And you could open your pitch by saying, isn't cancer horrible? And while that is true, now, now you gotta, I mean, you just dug a hole. I mean, not only am I depressed, I mean, I've lost people close to me due to cancer. I mean, it's, it's complex. Why would you want to go there? But at the same time, if you open with, with wild hype and some mad, uh, you know, vision of, of the, wouldn't it be great if, you know, if we had unicorns and transporter beams, none of those things exist. So what is it that is, that is real, that is true, that is doable? You know, I was holding up, we were, we were doing some silly little cards. And I was holding up a little card before we got going. And that card says something that I was trying to remind myself of my clients have, and that is do the doable. So if you're looking for where to, where to open, what is, what is doable? What, what is not aspirational, not depressing, not, not hype, but something that, that is, is doable and isn't it, isn't it doable for us to all say that we see and understand that. Without resources, it's hard to generate revenue. And if that's true, you see what I'm saying is you start at this sort of overarching concept that leads you into, because that's what we're trying to do here. We're trying to bring, I need to bring on some resources. And you probably, if you're talking with your boss, they probably already know this. And if it is true, and it is something that they already know, say what's true. The most powerful pitch is the one that is, it is the most honest thing that you can say.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:09.599)

honest and true.

Chris Westfall (27:09.821)

And if you say what honest and true, it has to be. No hype, no hype, yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:12.714)

Honest and true. Right? Honest and true and doable. Like you said. Yeah. Okay.

Chris Westfall (27:19.085)

correct. What and why doable? Cause it's easy to say yes to.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:23.366)

Okay, so you lead with that, something honest and true and doable, and they're going to say yes. And then what?

Chris Westfall (27:32.769)

That's the hope that you find that first yes. And then what you're looking for is something that is one of these four things. Something that is unexpected, surprising, innovative, or counterintuitive. And counterintuitive means it doesn't work the way that you think it's going to. So, and you go, why are you saying this, Chris? Why does it have to be unexpected, counterintuitive, or innovative, or surprising? And the answer is, because this is what, in some circles you might call a hook. It's something that draws people into your story. It's something that you have not heard before. And it might be something like saying, you know, one of the things that we haven't discussed, boss, is the possibility of bringing on temporary workers for 30 to 60 days. I know you're probably thinking that the cost of that is outrageous because of the fees, but I've negotiated a special deal and I want to tell you about it. For example, you see where I'm going with that? It's that we didn't see this coming. And it's not, you didn't see this coming, gotcha. You're an idiot. Nope, that's not it. It's there's something new on the horizon. There's something that's unexpected. Something that's surprising. Something that's surprising like a birthday present, not like a tsunami or an earthquake, but something that is surprising and desirable and doable that makes people say, tell me more.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:57.155)

So it sounds like it's a question that they're going to agree with, and then it's some sort of statement of fact that they already know, combined with some new information that will make them say, tell me more. How am I doing so far?

Chris Westfall (29:15.501)

100%, you're on it. That is the elevator pitch system. That's what you're describing. That's what I've crafted. That's what I share with companies and entrepreneurs. And for people that are looking to create new results in their careers, I write about it in Forbes. That's the conversation that matters. That conversation that starts with something that we all know, we use what is known to get to what's new. And that's the path, that's the path.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:41.07)

Got it. Now, does that change if let's say instead of my boss, who's the one that I directly report to, but now it's my boss's boss. I happen to be in the elevator with the person above my boss. Is the approach the same or how does it differ?

Chris Westfall (30:01.165)

The way that it differs starts with the way that you, again, the way that you approach the word problem. It's what, what story are you telling yourself before you start telling your story about your boss's boss? Do you think that your boss's boss walks on water? Do you think that your boss's boss flies in a spaceship or has power over time and space because they can hire and fire employees? Again, look at, look at the story that you are telling yourself. And one of the things that I think that I have seen that is so powerful is the ability to just be very real. When my client was on shark tank season 12, a guy named Aaron Powell, you can look him up. I'll give you that link too. You can, you could watch him get into a verbal, a verbal fist fight with Barbara Corcoran where she, she takes him downtown. Quite frankly. Uh, it is, yeah, it's, it's a rough patch. Yeah. I'll, I'll send it to you and you can see Aaron is his company's named bunch bikes. Anyway.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:51.142)

Oh, oh my gosh. Now I have to watch. I'll give you the link. Don't worry if you're listening. I'll give you the link. Okay, cool. We got this.

Chris Westfall (30:59.857)

So Aaron Powell though was, Barbara Corcoran was coming after him and he had some debt on his balance sheet that she didn't like it. And she wanted to explain why. And instead of falling into a story about Barbara Corcoran's vast accomplishments, there are many, just like all the sharks, and falling into this trap of like, well, I just, I can't speak to her because she's, oh my God, she's Barbara Corcoran, I'm on TV and da da.

I mean, you can, you can hear all the mental chatter that you, that must have been going through his mind. And if you watch the clip, you'll see he's nervous. He's nervous like anybody would be, but in the midst of the nerves, what he does is he gets real and he talks to Barbara about why he made the decisions that he did, why the debt was created and what it was all about. And he stepped towards the truth of his story, not some made up story about who's who Barbara

is or was on that show. And it's the same thing when we go to talk to our bosses. If you're talking to someone two levels, you're doing a skip level meeting, that sort of thing, just look at the story. How can you see this person as someone who's real? And I'm not saying you walk into their office and go, hey bro, how's it hanging? I'm not saying that, right? I'm not saying drop all sense of decorum or chain of command, but at the same time, when we see one another's humanity, our pitch gets stronger. Our conversation gets more compelling. And just remember that because someone is older than you or younger than you or smarter than you or dumber than you or whatever than you or less whatever than you, none of those comparisons matter. Where are we the same? We're the same in our emotions, at what we want. Look in the direction of those universal things. We all want safety. We all want a sense of belonging. We all understand that you have to spend money to make money. what are those universal themes that exist outside of title or education or income level? That's where your pitch gets powerful.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (33:07.218)

Absolutely. So Chris, does it, does it, does the scenario change at all? If instead of the employee and you're the project manager, now let's say you are the manager and you need additional employees or full-time employees, or it's not just resources anymore. It might just not just be money. Now it's additional staff and you get on the elevator with your boss or your boss's boss. Is the conversation

The same, how does it differ?

Chris Westfall (33:39.853)

The difference that really makes a meaningful difference is making a shift. Some people are not able to make it, but I'll tell you what that shift is. It's shifting your attention off of yourself and onto service. In other words, I need more employees. I'm going to my boss and I got to ask for more employees. I need more resources. I need more software training. I need more. I need, I need, baby needs new shoes, right? Mama needs a new stove.

None of that is compelling. And you go, what do you mean? I, isn't an elevator pitch where I talk about what I've done and what I want. Um, not if you're in the advanced class and not if you want to get what it is that you're looking for, because people who are sophisticated and understand how to speak in the language of leadership, speak about impact. And, and they, they take the story one step further from ID new employees to

If I had new employees, here's what I might be able to do for you. Here's what we might be able to create together. Here's the impact of bringing new employees on. And here's what I would do for you and with you and through you. If you'll, if you'll green light two more FTEs, here's what that will look like. And your ability in an elevator pitch to go beyond being self-serving, go beyond being self-conscious.

go beyond telling yourself a story that does not serve you to creating a message that looks in the direction of service and impact. It's just really simple. Look in this direction of these four words. If you want to make more progress with your manager, you want to look at getting a promotion, getting new resources, these four words are key. Here they are. I've thought this through. I've thought this through because

You know, you come in and you go, I need, I need more employees. I need more training. I need, you know, you sound like a six year old. And I hate to say that about people, but, but seriously think, think it through. What is it that you are saying that is, that is helpful, that is useful. That's going to build your team. That's going to build morale. That's going to increase employee engagement. That's going to balance out the puts and takes that matter to your boss, to your boss's boss and to the entire organization. That's a pitch that's compelling.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:01.387)

So Chris, pretend you are that manager then, and you're about to talk to your manager's manager. If you were in that elevator, what would you say?

Chris Westfall (36:13.457)

start off by looking at what it is that I know the organization wants and needs. And I could make something up right now on the spot. But in the I mean, I don't know if that's what you want me to do if you want me to if you want to create something

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:24.45)

That's fine. Go ahead. Yeah, make it see what does it sound like? Look, put yourself in their shoes and just pretend this is real. Even if you have to make up some details of it. What how would it sound for you coming out of your mouth?

Chris Westfall (36:36.829)

You know how we've been talking about increasing our market share by 2025, and we're going to do it based on acquisitions. That's one of the key themes that we've been discussing in our meetings. But you also know that we can't grow the business without additional resources. And I'm coming to you to ask for something that you might not expect it. It might be kind of surprising, but I need three full-time employees to join. So that.

Notice what I just said there, Brian. So that those two words, see it? Okay, sorry, I jumped out of the pitch. Back into the scene. I'm back in the scene. But so that is very powerful. But I need three additional employees so that we can be on track for those goals and so that we can do the research that's needed to have the conversations with these acquisition targets to help you to hit these objectives. And you may be thinking that I can do it without those resources, and I appreciate your confidence. But the fact is I want to step you through and I've got a little quick presentation I can share with you exactly what is required, what these people will do and how these three new full-time employees are exactly what we need. And when we create these acquisitions, their costs will be offset. I want to show you how I've thought this through and see if you agree with what I've put together. Would you be open to that conversation?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:03.502)

Got it. I see what you did there. I see what you did there though. I see what you're driving at here. This is okay. I like that. So you started with something that you knew to be true, and you stated a situation, a fact that they would also know to be true as well. Kind of state the problem that you both know.

Chris Westfall (38:06.061)

There's a lot of what if and a lot of making up stuff. But you see where.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:29.978)

and then offer some new information and a solution, just enough information to get them to say, tell me more, or at the end, ask them if they'd be willing to hear more, even if they don't say, tell me more. Can I share more later? Start a conversation.

Chris Westfall (38:37.921)

Let's talk them. Correct. You've nailed it. And notice that I didn't say, and I've got a 47 slide deck that I want to step you through. Plus a 200 page white paper that I need you to read, you know, and could I, could I, could I take your blood as well? I mean, it's just, no, it, I, you don't want to build a bridge too far. The best elevator pitch is not a barrage or a shotgun approach where we dive deeply into the details. The best elevator pitch in many cases, is about permission. Permission, giving yourself permission not to be intimidated by your boss's boss, right? Giving yourself permission to be a human being, talking to another human being, and giving yourself permission to recognize that you don't have to tell your entire life story from birth up till yesterday in 30 seconds. Nobody can do that. Do the doable. What is it that you can achieve? You can get somebody to say, yeah, I'd be curious to know more. Let's have a conversation.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (39:44.686)

Chris, this is so I selfishly, I want to pose and I'm happy to share this with you listening to I had a scenario come up from me personally where I did not hit a home run with my elevator pitch, but I also didn't fail either. And so I want to share the circumstances of that with you. And then I'm curious what you would have had me say if I could go back and do it again. Right. So the scenario is I productivity gladiator is about teaching

life balance and personal practical productivity skills to overworked early to mid-career project managers. And so I happened to be at a corporate event for Samsung and the director of their training and education department happened to be there, our diversity and inclusion department. It was somewhat up who's involved in training at Samsung, who's a pretty high level person there. And so

Brian Nelson-Palmer (40:40.438)

the people to be able to teach productivity gladiator training to the people at Samsung. So I happened to get on the elevator with this woman and we have, we're going up to the roof. So it is literally the elevator pitch scenario in person happening in real life. I get on the elevator at floor five, the roof is floor 14. So I have that much time and she had introduced herself in the social scenario before we got on the elvator. We get on the elevator and she asks, so Brian, what do you do? Now, here's my elevator pitch. What would if you were in my shoes or you were coaching me, Chris, what would you what would you say? What's my. What would where do I start? What do I say there?

Chris Westfall (41:26.857)

I'd start with something that's really easy to say yes to. Like, you know how productivity training is everything here at Samsung, and you're very interested in getting the most out of your people. That's what I do. In other words, I would start by saying, I think I know what you want. And I'm actually that thing. That would be where I would start. That's, that's where I would look is, is by is acknowledging

Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:49.379)

Right. That's it. Okay.

Chris Westfall (41:57.153)

the person right in front of you? What is it that you know about her, that you know that she wants? And isn't it true that for all companies everywhere, not just Samsung, but every company you can think of, as well as every government agency and every nonprofit, they're interested in maximizing productivity. They want to get the most out of their employees. And companies that are serious about that, they understand that investing in training is the best way to do that. Does this make sense?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (42:22.678)

Right? Yeah. See, and I see exactly where it's all. I'll tell you what I did instead in this real life world. What I did instead is I shared a little bit about what productivity gladiator does. I answered her question, which is, you know, I said, and for me it was fun because my different thing is I'm able to tell people that happy hour I'm able to say or in the elevator. People ask me what I do and I say quite honestly, I train gladiators and then I stop and there's a pause and generally.

Chris Westfall (42:28.914)

Okay, what'd you do?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (42:51.61)

It's the tell me more thing. I was successful with the tell me more moment in this case because then she kind of gave me that sideways look on wait a minute, train gladiators. And then I said, yeah, I teach life balance and personal practical productivity skills to overwork project managers. And so that started the conversation. And ultimately I didn't fail. and that she is interested. And I mean, I hope that this opportunity does come around. It didn't close, but at the same time, the part that I totally missed and I failed at was I didn't start with what does Samsung need? I just answered the question. I'm like, oh, I see it, Chris, I see it.

Chris Westfall (43:33.609)

It's a bit of a trick question and you're not alone. You're not alone. I've been there too. I've been there. And the impulse is strong to start talking about what it is that you do, but what it is that you do is descriptive. It is not compelling. The service that you offer, the service that you offer is compelling and also demonstrating your understanding of the audience that you serve. And if I may, some things that are showing up for me is could you say, you know how all project managers, especially if they're, if they're busy, they could be facing some burnout or, you know, when it comes to managing a project, organizational skills are key, but they're not the whole story to creating success. And you see what I mean? It's a little bit different than a, I mean, I like the gladiator thing, but you know, it makes me, I was like, American gladiators? What does he do? So.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (44:31.219)

And you know what? It went, that's so funny you said that cause it went sideways on me at happy hour the other day. I said that. And instead of being interested, they launched right into, oh my God, did you see the Netflix special on American gladiators, the 30 and 30 or whatever? And it was one of those things where like, dang it, Chris Westfall would be so disappointed in me right now. Dang it.

Chris Westfall (44:52.533)

And you're like, I want to, I want to create value and I'm having a conversation about nitro. I don't care about that guy. Anyway. Yes. How did I know? I just pulled that out of my hat. Yeah. You don't want to, you don't want to derail yourself. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you. I hope that it does help you. And here's the, here's the good news. If I can say this to you as well, that conversation is not over my friend, the conversation is not over. It's just begun. So

Brian Nelson-Palmer (44:59.891)

My god, I used to love Nitro. Yes. Okay, totally. Yes. Right. Absolutely. Gosh, that's so funny. Okay. Well, that is hugely helpful, Chris. Yeah.

Chris Westfall (45:21.633)

Just remember that you can restart the conversation anytime. Uh, no guarantees that people will hit you back, but you can restart that conversation. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (45:28.51)

No, totally. Absolutely. And you know that you bring up a really good point there, which is if you flub your elevator pitch in the elevator and they don't, they aren't interested in knowing more. Do you, when you follow up with them or you to try to have that conversation again, how does that, how does that start? Is it similar approach? Do you have any thoughts on, on that? If you fail your first elevator pitch and you're trying to follow up with that person.

Chris Westfall (45:55.853)

The question that I would ask before you reach back out is what could make this easier? As you face into reaching back out, rather than looking at scripts, strategies, and techniques, what's the most honest thing that you can say? What's a yes? What's a when that you could get? What is something that you could say or share that will be a yes? And that will be where I would look and just...

because it's so easy to get lost in your head space and in your thinking of what does this need to be and what's the verbal jujitsu move? Do I do attack pattern, Delta 9, follow up 63B, go! And that's not the approach. It's about being real. And again, back to the story that I told about the guy who gave that terrific pitch, what was great about it was that he was real and he was loose enough to be real and to go off script. And...

Brian Nelson-Palmer (46:54.154)

Now, I got it.

Chris Westfall (46:55.173)

What is it that you can say to the person that you met that would restart that dialogue? And if you go, I just, I don't know. I don't know. I need somebody's script. I need somebody to tell me what to, I would just say, hold on, wait, settle down. Let your thinking slow down a little bit. That's one of the things I share with my clients, slow down. You got to slow down to go fast. You got to slow down to accelerate your results and let that conversation unfold. We all know how to have conversations. If we're sincerely curious, if, you know, if we're trying to be manipulative, then we're looking for scripts and tactics and, you know, verbal gotchas that that's, that's not a relationship. That's not a relationship. Yeah. Is that a hell

Brian Nelson-Palmer (47:36.634)

Right. Yeah. Get it. Absolutely. Chris. And you know, I'm curious, how did you get into this? It like, clearly, you've spent a lot of time on this. And I know you mentioned back in the beginning, you talked about how you, you know, you ended up being you win, you won this competition as the best, you know, elevator pitch. But what

Did you what happened? What was it for you that even pulled you into that comfort competition in the first place? How did you did you fail at an elevator pitch and you wanted to figure it out? How did it how did it happen for you?

Chris Westfall (48:08.938)

Yes.

I failed miserably at an elevator pitch and I did, it was an absolute disaster. And, uh, and I was working with folks at the time. Uh, I was a career coach at a university and I was working with folks at the time on their elevator pitches. In other words, how do you show up in the interview and create new results on that kind of thing? So what led me to the contest was simply curiosity to see if I could, if I could change the conversation and that was, that was what made me curious. But yeah, I, I'll never forget it. I gave a terrible elevator pitch. I was, I was ashamed. I was embarrassed. I crashed and I mean, you won't, I can tell you what, what happened. If you, if you want to know.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (48:53.454)

To, with an intro like that, you're not gonna tell us? Come on, Chris, you're a romantic. You gotta give us a, you gotta finish the story here. Come on.

Chris Westfall (48:57.701)

Well, yeah. All right. Come on. Come on. Brian show and confess your sins. All right. Here we are. So I was I was going back to school to get a graduate degree, and they had an icebreaker to have everybody in the room stand up and say, what was your last full time job before you came into this program? This this graduate school. So people are standing up and they're saying, well, I was the manager of a bank.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (49:05.219)

Uh... Yeah! HAHAHA!

Chris Westfall (49:27.597)

and somebody else stands up and says, well, I was a consultant with Ernst & Young, or they're saying all these very prestigious, and then it comes to be my turn, it's my turn. And I get to stand up in front of this cohort of people that I'm going to go to school with for the next two years and establish my credibility. And here's how I did it. I said, my last full-time job was I was a professional stuntman. Professional stunt man, true story. So I'm going into this program trying to figure out how to move my career forward, how to get into the boardroom. And I'm telling a story about how I was trading fake punches at a stunt show, an outdoor stunt show in the city where I lived. And I was just mortified. I was like, you know, I have to say who I am. That's what they're asking me is who I am. And I was just, I was ashamed.

I was insecure. I was like, I'm in the wrong room. I'm feeling less than I'm feeling like I'm not the guy. What I came to realize was that in my experience of working in this stunt show, I learned some valuable lessons. I learned about managing risk. I learned about how to navigate with a performer's mindset. Because again, this was an outdoor stunt show that I did in a Southern state when the temperatures on stage. Could be 130, 140 degrees. I mean, they were driving motorcycles and blowing pyrotechnics on this stage. And it taught me some things about the importance of safety. It taught me about the performer's mindset. It taught me about how to pace yourself so you could do that eight times a day. So I learned some things that I didn't realize when I gave my elevator pitch originally. And so from this place, I realized that I need to work with folks to help them to pull out their story, to not just stop with the feelings of imposter syndrome or feeling like you're less than, or that you don't have what it takes. It's going deeper to understand how to take from your experience, to look at it and say, what's good about this? What can I pull from this unusual, unique set of circumstances? And that's been the work that I've done with the US Navy SEALs and other organizations. Because if you think about it, every Navy SEAL has done and seen things that the average sometimes can't even imagine in the, in the pursuit of our freedom. You know what I mean? And they, they so, and kudos to all those who serve, but also to the Navy SEALs because their experience is so specific. Well, how do you take that specific and unusual circumstance and make it relatable? And that was what I, I discovered from this, this goofy elevator pitch, but you know, it's a part of who I am, uh, for better or for worse. That is, that is who I am, but looking in the direction of what's good about this.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (51:51.79)

can't even imagine. Yeah. Sure. Yeah.

Chris Westfall (52:19.189)

What can I pull from this that can be of service to others so that I'm not just in love with my own experience or ashamed of it or going on some emotional journey because of my history? No, that the journey at hand is, how can you help other people? What is it that we can do to be of service? That, that I think is, is the place to look. If you want a powerful elevator pitch.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (52:42.286)

That's man. This has been so much fun, Chris. I tell you what, man, it is it has been certainly enlightening and eye opening for me. I feel like I've gotten a bunch out of this and I hope you listening have to. So thank you very much for joining today for are there any other resources in this area if somebody is looking to level up their elevator pitch? What else are there other resources that you would recommend on that? Certainly reach out to you and we'll talk about how they keep in touch with you. But any other thoughts that come to mind on good resources?

Chris Westfall (53:11.233)

Well, there's a few things I write about careers and leadership on Forbes. And so you can find those articles if you're interested in how do I turn my elevator pitch into a powerful interview? I've got several articles that I've written in very recent history, and you can find that on a Forbes.com. I also have a YouTube channel where I share videos and that is youtube.com forward slash Westfall online. And so there's a number of free resources that people can check out there. And of course you can find me on Twitter and the gram and that's also at Westfall online.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (53:41.166)

There you go. And I'll give you all those links in the show notes too. So you can check out some of these places and, and keep in touch with, and with Chris and Chris, here's what I love, man. I love that your story about being a stunt man turned into a career, turned into a book, turned into this podcast episode with us. And it has been absolutely, I feel like I am at least better equipped now after just talking with you here to do, uh, to do an elevator pitch or when it happens to me next time. Because realistically, it's never going to be perfect. And years and years of practice and you're still going to fail at these things. But at the same time, where do you start? It gives us a good basis. So I love that you're in and you're doing this thing and that you wrote a book on it so that we can pay it forward. Because I know I definitely want to want to check out the book as well. And I'll certainly include that link for everybody here.

Chris Westfall (54:33.069)

Thanks for having me, Brian. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (54:35.814)

Absolutely. And last couple things for you listening. I have two opportunities for you. The first one is, do you have a friend or colleague who you've talked about elevator pitches with? One of the things with podcasts is oftentimes me, the host will say, oh yeah, you know, and thanks for sharing the podcast or something like that. And my question for you is if there's somebody who you've talked to elevator pitches with, or who does elevator pitches like we've talked about in here, if you would share this episode specifically with them.

I know Chris and I would both love that because we both do this to kind of pay it forward and help others. So please do share this specific episode with them. That would be awesome. And thanks so much for checking out the episode and subscribing. I have special events and knowledge that I share in my email list. So I would certainly if you're not a part of my email list, productivity gladiator.com, I would certainly love to have you as a part of that. But I love sharing productivity gladiator with you. And that's a wrap.

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