Dean Karrel, a sales trainer and career advisor, joins Brian to discuss everyday sales tactics that can be used to influence and persuade, not just in a sales role but in all aspects of life - with kids, family, bosses, and clients. They discuss emotional intelligence, listening, understanding the other person's perspective, telling stories, being prepared, focusing on benefits over features, building trust through integrity, and character, as key skills for effective "selling" and positive influence in all your relationships. Selling is a valuable skill in all your roles throughout your life. Everyday persuasion is right!
The Audio/Podcast
Links to References In This Episode
Dean Karrel's book "Mastering the Basics: Keys to Career & Life Success"
Dean Karrel’s courses on LinkedIn Learning
Brian Nelson-Palmer's TEDx talk on the value of your time
Movie Glengarry Glen Ross - the Alec Baldwin "Always Be Closing" speech scene
Movie - The Wolf of Wall Street - The Sales Speech Scene
Movie - Tin Men - scene on deception & Aluminum Siding
Dr. Todd Dewett's episode on storytelling
Episode Digest
What Do You Mean Everyday PERSUASION
We all have an aversion to “sales” and “selling.” Visions of high pressure, scammy salespeople immediately come to mind thanks to negative stereotypes perpetuated by popular media. However, the reality is sales skills are invaluable in all aspects of business and life – with your colleagues, your family, even your kids. Sales, influence, and persuasion happen everyday in a variety of relationships and scenarios.
So how can you utilize sales tactics effectively without manipulation? The key is authenticity. Success lies in enhancing your natural abilities rather than pretending to be someone you’re not.
““At the end of the day, you can’t fake it.” ”
Emotional Intelligence Sets the Stage
The first and most critical sales skill is emotional intelligence – self-awareness and understanding others. You can’t sell anything without first reading the emotional state of the other party. Listen more than you speak to pick up on cues revealing how the other person is feeling and what objections or concerns they may have. Empathize and find common ground. No progress will happen if emotions run high or trust lacks. As one quote puts it, “take it easy, they’re doing the best they can.” Meet people where they are first before launching into a proposal or request.
What’s in It For Them?
We all ask ourselves “What’s in this for me?” when presented with an offer. The key is to flip perspectives. Demonstrate how your product, idea, or proposal specifically solves a problem or adds value for the other party. Generic benefits don’t compel action. You have to understand motivations and goals from their angle. Do your research to craft messaging hitting on tangible outcomes the other person cares about.
An example shared was utilizing AI to help clean out and use up food when moving houses. The benefit of convenience connecting with a pressing real need in the moment led to adoption of the technology. Even though general usefulness had been touted before without impact. Think benefits over features and make it personal.
Stories Resonate More Than Stats
Stories speak directly to emotions and relationships. Data and facts have their place in selling, but stories forge human connections vital for influence. One powerful anecdote relayed was of a salesperson standing on a couch to physically demonstrate the “no sag” benefit of that particular furniture product. Visuals showing 350 pounds of force exerted without damage tell the durability story far better than talking springs and fabric quality.
Stories also help deliver difficult news or major changes that require buy-in from your team. Explaining the reasons behind a shift through story gives helpful context. Even during painful layoffs, the “why” behind restructuring won empathy and preserved future relationships with those impacted.
Authenticity Starts with Self-Awareness
A sales pro knows both strengths and growth areas – they have clarity on natural abilities that can be enhanced versus trying to force behaviors not aligned with innate tendencies. As one leader learned, aggression and manipulation don’t work long-term even if you initially close more deals. You burn trust quickly through not being genuine.
Leaning into authenticity requires self-awareness. What unique value do you bring based on abilities, experience, and personality? Lead with your true self to build trust and likability that enables influence.
The Foundation: Character
At the root, your character determines the trust you instill. One story involved calling out a rude customer and then encountering them later as a job candidate. Treating people respectfully regardless of power status or external pressures reveals strong principles. Do you help others when there is no advantage or audience? How you act when no one is looking shows who you truly are.
“You burn trust quickly through not being genuine.”
Relationships Drive Referrals
Finally, sales has shifted from one-off transactions to relationship focus because referrals now drive revenue. While AI supports many business functions, people ultimately still decide to do business with people. No software builds rapport and trust for you. Use technology to enhance but not try to replace human connections.
Listening and learning about the other person before launching into a sales pitch proves more persuasive than glossy brochures or elegant features. Sales at its core sits on this foundation: genuinely knowing, helping, and collaborating with humans.
Today’s Guest
Dean Karrel
Sales Trainer, Career Mentor, Author
Dean Karrel is an expert in executive coaching, career mentoring, sales training, and leadership development.
Dean has been in sales management and leadership positions for over three decades with some major global publishing companies. Most recently, he was senior vice president of sales of John Wiley & Sons based in Hoboken, New Jersey. His sales teams were focused on direct sales to major retailers such as Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Costco, and other national chains, along with initiatives aimed at B2B and B2C sales. Dean now has his own consulting business providing sales training programs along with career and executive coaching. In addition, he is a Certified Professional Career Coach. Dean is the author of Mastering the Basics: Simple Lessons for Achieving Success in Business.
Website: linkedin.com/learning/instructors/dean-karrel
Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/deankarrel
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About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a senior project manager, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. These Gladiators wield email management superpowers, a laser-guided ability to focus, samurai-grade prioritization skills, a sniper-precise task tracking approach, Jedi time management skills, and a secret sauce for maximizing their personal life balance. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat! Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.
Transcript
Brian Nelson-Palmer
I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. And on this show, I talk about personal practical productivity skills. And in this episode, I want to dive into everyday persuasion. These are the sales tactics that work with kids, bosses, and clients, because sales is an everyday thing. It's a part of everybody's life. It's not just for the salespeople, right? So with me on the show today is Dean Karrel. Dean's a career development advisor and a sales trainer. Dean, thanks so much for joining me today.
Dean Karrel
Brian, it's great to be here. Thanks so much for inviting me, and I'm looking forward to our discussion today.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Wow, me too. I've been, he's got books on this topic. Dean's really well versed in this. And as I was thinking about, you know, like as a project manager or as an early career, up and coming aspiring leader, the sales tactics are something you're gonna use for your entire career, whether you're in sales or not. And so it was like, man, I get to talk with Dean about this. I've been excited. So thank you for being here on this. And now for those who don't know, I gave them a little primer, but talk about you in relation to, so we're gonna talk about everyday sales.
Tell them about you and your relation to sales.
Dean Karrel
Well, I've spent my whole career in sales. I started in the publishing industry as a textbook sales representative, and we actually bought print books. And I worked with a company named Prentice Hall, which was the number one textbook publisher way back in its day. And then I went to Simon & Schuster for a number of years, which is the big consumer publisher. And then I spent more than 20 years at a company named Wiley, which is a business book and consumer publisher, academic publisher and professional journals publisher, and for the last 10 years, I've done sales training, I do coaching, and I have sales courses with the training division of LinkedIn called LinkedIn Learning. So I love the profession and I always try to explain it in a way that makes it easy for people to understand.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
And sales really is an everyday thing. You know, you watch movies or there's, you get the easy version that sometimes comes out in public about, you know, it's like the sales stuff is about the slimy tactics they use at used car sales. And actually sales is nothing like that at all. So I'm so glad we get to talk about this. So let's dive in. So everyday sales tactics that work for your kids, your boss and your client, what's...
What comes to mind, I gave you this topic and I didn't really prime Dean ahead. There wasn't like a bunch of homework where we worked all these out ahead of time. It was like, all right, Dean, what comes to mind for you with this?
Dean Karrel
Well, I think you just touched on it in that introduction about sales tactics. When you say sales to people, immediately people have a reaction and many times, unfortunately, it is not positive. You know, the stereotypes for sales often come from movies and we joked about this in a note between ourselves beforehand about, you know, Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, of Alec Baldwin going, always be closing. And we were like, oh man.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Always be close. I'm going to share. I'll make sure I share a link to that scene from Glenn Gary. If you don't know what we're talking about, I'll share a link in the notes because oh man, it's like one of those moments where it just makes I used to be and I oh gosh, Dean, I'm sorry to interrupt. I should share that. I used to be the general manager of actually a furniture retail chain down in South Florida. And I used to teach sales training and hire and fire sales associates. And so I have a relationship with sales too very much. And when I watch that movie, it just oh, God, it hurts me sometimes that like, oh, that's not it at all. I'm glad you mentioned that.
Dean Karrel
No, it's not what you're absolutely right. But when people watch that and they think, well, that's what sales is all about. And then, you know, a great entertaining movie was the Wolf of Wall Street. You know, great. There was a lot of fun. But, you know, that's all those guys and women. They got in trouble. You know, Jordan Belfort went to jail. Now, he's since reformed himself. But that manipulative approach is not what sales is about. You go way back. There was a movie.
I'm really dating myself, it was called the Tin Men. And they would sell aluminum siding. And that's the impression that a lot of people have, the negative stereotype of what sales is all about. So I have fought that my entire career of trying to make, talk about sales tactics is the main thing is just be yourself. Not being manipulative, not being in your face.
But its sales tactics is something that it does involve every profession. Whether you're a project manager, a marketing manager, whether you're in selling at retail, our job is to try and influence people to make decisions. So the basics of sales tactics and the number one skill that I talk about is emotional intelligence. Again, no matter what your profession may be, it's being aware.
understanding and showing empathy. And I think that's one of the tactics that we all need to learn more of is emotional intelligence.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
for sure. There's emotional intelligence is definitely one of those when the customer comes in the store or forget store, right? We're talking about sales in everyday life. So when your son or daughter comes in and they're having some sort of rough day, or you're trying to convince your boss that you need funding for the upcoming project or something, if they're in a bad head space or they're not in a good mood, the odds of you getting that sale or them to say yes or something
You might want to take a little detour and change the emotions going on right now before you jump right into that topic. Because otherwise they're already primed to say no. So like, ah, emotional intelligence is it.
Dean Karrel
Emotional intelligence, which touches on just what you were going through there, is you have to be able to listen. Too often salespeople, and again, no matter what profession we're in, we're so excited to present our project or present our product or service that we don't actually listen to what the other person's saying. We're immediately coming up with our response. You hit on another topic that I've talked to my kids about throughout my entire life, and also the people I've hired and trained is...
Not every day is going to be a bowl of cherries, no matter what job you have. And in sales, in sales, that's so true. And that's what scares people about selling, is we don't want to hear no. And we're, rejection, who wants to hear that? But that's true in any job. We do hear no from our managers, or a proposal we've made doesn't, isn't accepted. And, you know, people often say to me, Dean, you know, you're always so upbeat, you're always so optimistic, you ever have a bad day. And I said, absolutely true.
And the lesson that I've taught my children is that, you know, when I first got into sales, uh, I lived in upstate New York, uh, Rochester, New York, middle of nowhere, snowing like crazy all the time. And, you know, here I am a new job. Well, I had a couple of bad days and I wrote down this note. Now this is, I'm dating myself. This goes back 40 years. So I said, remember
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Okay, hold that up to the camera. Okay, yup, there it is. Ooh, cool. Okay, what's it say?
Dean Karrel
You see this note?
And it says, "wasn't too good, come on Dean, make it!" Now this is a 40 year old note that I've kept in my pocket because there are gonna be days, no matter what job you have, that it's not gonna be good. So people then say to me, well, Dean, why do you still have this? Because life is a roller coaster. And thankfully, I don't have to refer to this all the time, but in my 30s, I did. You have those questions like, what is my path? Where am I going? You've shifted careers, career paths in your life.
We all go through that. I looked at it in my 30s. I had a great job. My last job at Wiley, I was the senior vice president of sales, I left that. And when I went to do something else, I actually referred to this notice and why did I leave that job? So the lesson is, and what I've taught and exchanged with my children is, not every day is gonna be perfect.
And life does has the ties and lows. And certainly you feel that in sales and you feel that in every profession.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
And I really love what we're talking about here is also listening and paying attention to what other people are going through at the same time. You mentioned listening is important and my favorite metaphor I used to share was, you have two ears and one mouth and you should use them proportionally. So like twice as much listening as talking, because if you listen, they will give you the cues. They often give you the answers. So your kids, your bosses, whatever it is, they're gonna hesitate for some reason and that reason that they share, if you're listening, is probably part of whatever it is you need to overcome in order to convince the kids that, yes, we should go on vacation to this particular location instead of the one they want, or to stop, why are you actually having a temper tantrum? Or it's one of those things that like, man, if you listen and you pay attention to the emotional intelligence, like we talk about, the cues, they come at you if you're listening and if you're paying attention. I love it.
Dean Karrel
You have to work at it. And it is the natural inclination is when you're making a presentation on a new project or you're making a presentation in sales or you're making a marketing proposal is, you're so excited to present it that you keep talking. And you have to make sure you sit back. It's a really, it is a learning curve. It's almost like putting your hands underneath your thighs and saying, be quiet and say nothing. And just look and look at somebody in the eye. That's so true. But it's a but it you know, we're all we've got rent to pay. We've got mortgages to pay. We've got to feed our families. We have to eat. So we're so anxious to have the proposal accepted or make that sale or close that business that we're not looking for those queues that you just mentioned. We're so anxious to continue speaking and sell our product or service.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Big time. As I was reflecting on this topic too, before the episode, one of the thoughts that came to mind that's also a helpful tip, no matter where you are, the tip is, what's in it for me? Remember that phrase because for kids, for bosses, for clients, for everybody, it's not about you, it's about them. And so if you're selling something or you have a proposal that you want to be accepted or you whatever...
that you wanna go to a certain place or a certain restaurant or a certain, if you have a way that you would like for things to go, they don't care what you want, they care what they want. And that's not to be crass, that's not mean, that's just, it is what it is with their interested in what's in it for them. So as long as when you talk about things, you don't always start out with an end with.
Well, because I want to do it and this is what I think because of I'll make this money or I'll get this thing or I'll get, it's about, well, what is it? What's in it for them? And so that was one of, oh, like, oh my gosh, it's the WIFM, W-I-I-F-M, what's in it for me? Remember that one, yeah.
Dean Karrel
for me. Well, again, that's a learning curve also, because we are, again, so anxious thinking about ourselves. But you have to put yourself in the buyer's situation or the person you're presenting to, their situation. I used to complain a lot. I go to see certain customers. I say, ah, they're so tough. This buyer with such a pain in the neck. He's not listening. He's always going no, or she's always going no. And you realize they're under the same pressure as we are. And on the other side of the desk,
video call in that they've got obligations to make in their business, they've got budgets to hit, they've got limited resources. So you have to put yourself on the other person's shoes and seeing what they're going through. It is a two-way street. In this day and age, the sales role is really trying to become a trusted advisor with the customers that we're dealing with, rather than me versus them. It's how do we solve a problem together? So it's a...
That's an evolution of when sales is different than when I first got into it. And buyers are much more knowledgeable. People know much, much more what they want to buy and what, and if you're making a project presentation, the person on the other side has those same obligations and considerations to go through. So it's being aware, going back to emotional intelligence of what that other person is going through.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
You know, I'm reminded of the metaphor when you, the metaphor is when you're selling, imagine yourself sitting on the same side of the table as them, because when you create the standoff situation, that's the scenario like when you're in the car dealership and the guy's sitting across the table and you want this and he wants this and you're back and forth and that thing. If you imagine yourself as what do we want and you're sitting on the same side of the table as the customer or the kids or the boss or the whoever it is and like what...
What's in it for us? What do we want? You're on the same team. It totally changes the dynamic. So imagine yourself sitting on the same side of the table as the person that you are selling to or trying to convince, whatever it is in life.
Dean Karrel
It's a, that is a real learning curve because it's a very stressful thing when I used to go to big, some big box retailers from Walmart to Barnes and Noble to Amazon, and you'd sit in a room and you have a buyer across from you and your book. He has, he or she has, you know, the, the objectives that they're trying to get. I have the objectives that I'm trying to get. I'm trying to get my products are serviced in those accounts and they're trying to find ways to get a better deal or make sure it's the right offering. And
You know, it's a very interesting environment when you go back to the days when you would sit across a desk in a buyer's office and it is one on one. And as you said, they've got obligations and considerations to meet too. And it's a learning curve is how do you make it a win-win for both people? You're not going to get everything that you want and they can't get everything that they want. How do you make both sides successful?
It goes back to that phrase of being a trusted advisor. If you're a salesperson that's just trying to make one deal and run, or if you're trying to make a project presentation and say, OK, I got it, move on to the next one, that's not a recipe for long-term success. Excuse me. What you're trying to build is a long-term relationship. That comes with trust, honesty, being authentic, and being genuine.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
for sure, absolutely. One of the other thoughts that I wanted to, as I was thinking about this, I wanted to share is, remember that in any situation, kids, bosses, selling, all of these, it's the benefits, not the features. And what I mean by that, I have this story that I have that comes to mind is I will never forget when I was in the furniture store and we were doing sales training, there was a guy that weighed
We called him Big Ben. Big Ben was 350 pounds and he was six foot eight. And you just wondered how on earth is this guy selling furniture? Like this guy's huge. There's you think somebody that big would have some sort of career that involves being that big or something. But no, he was he was a wonderful sales guy. And so we used to teach with the sales training that it's the feature, not the benefit. So the feature that he used to demonstrate, he would say the feature is that this thing, it has a no sag spring system for the couch. So for you, that's like, if you sit down on the couch, your couch is never gonna bottom out or sag if you buy this couch. And then he would take the cushion off of the couch and Big Ben would stand on the springs and bounce up and down like a kid for these. And so you got Big Ben 350 pounds bouncing on this spring system. Like that was the benefit. So that visual of the benefit, like the no sag seating system was the feature, but the benefit was that it's never going to sag. Look at Big Ben bouncing on this thing. And so I share that because when you think about the things that you're selling, whether it's your kids or your boss or whatever it is, it think about what the benefit is for them. It's not just the feature. It's not just the bullet on the thing that, oh, it has this feature. You got a certain car. You want to convince your family that, hey, we should get this one because
It has Bluetooth. They don't care about Bluetooth, but what they do care about is the fact that the kids can be in the backseat with their iPhone controlling the music to the front seat without, so it's stuff like that where it's the benefits, not the features that make all the difference.
Dean Karrel
It's also with Big Ben, he's being authentic. That's who he is. And he's saying, look, this is who I am. I'm a big guy and this is what works with the furniture that I'm selling. It is effective. It goes to, I used to have managers and bosses at one company I worked with, their sales training techniques was being aggressive, being manipulative, being in your face and being in a da da, close, close. And I realized, I tried to be like that for a period of time. You know,
You stay in a, I'm a, I'm a, blah, blah. And you realize, that's not me. And I talk about in sales training is, at the end of the day, you have to just be yourself. You know, I'm not an A student, I was a B student. How do I become successful? Well, it is enhancing the skills that I was given when I was, you know, when I was raised. I try to be nice to people, I try to be outgoing, I try to be authentic, I try to be genuine. So those are lessons that I teach is in learning from that, the contrast of trying to be somebody I was not. So Big Ben may have been six foot eight, three hundred pounds, but he was being real. He was saying, hey look, I have a good product that I'm selling you, offering you. And that's a great example of somebody just being themselves. He wasn't trying to fake it. I am what I am.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Oh, true, man. Big Ben, I think so fondly of that guy. It's been years. I haven't seen Big Ben in years, but I will never forget him bouncing up and down. And he bounced up and down on that sofa like 10 times a day. I mean, that same sofa, that same seat on the same sofa. Like he did that over and over and over again. And I so I to this day, I would still buy that couch because after watching Big Ben do that every day for years of that floor model, it's still good. Anyway, I side.
Dean Karrel
Well, that's a profession. When you talk about a profession that's misunderstood is selling furniture, because there are some chains where it is a very aggressive sales approach. And the best salespeople. It's funny. I just went to a retailer meeting yesterday, and the woman is an unbelievable salesperson because she doesn't sell. And she kept asking me what we were doing in our home for my wife and I, how we were designing everything.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
I like that.
Dean Karrel
And I've gone back to her three or four times because she is just kept asking me, what are we adding in our house? What are we trying to do? She actually unsold things that I was thinking I wanted to buy. She said, you don't need that. Wait, get it in your home first and then see what makes sense. But there are some chains, as you know, in the furniture industry, which is often misunderstood where it is a very aggressive sales tactic where.
you walk in the front door and the next salesperson has to come up, right? Who gets in, who, you know, and it's a, um, so it's a tough business. So that's why somebody like a big Ben can be so effective and successful.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Absolutely. Well, Dean, I wanna pivot and look at, I wanna look at it through certain lenses now is what I'd like to do. So what I wanna ask you is let's, so I'm gonna give you some scenarios and let's talk about what are the skills that come to mind, the sort of, generally we might have taught them as sales skills over the years, but what are the skills that are gonna be applicable in that situation? So first, let's talk about for kids, spouses, family.
Are there any stories or what are the skills and what are the stories that come to mind for you in convincing your family or your kids or your spouse selling ideas or things to do things?
Dean Karrel
Well, I always talk about being ready and prepared. And if you're going to, you can't just show up and say, you know, I want to be able to get a new car, dad, or I want to get a new baseball bat. You know, it's being able to say, dad, I have worked hard in school, and I want to see if I can come up with a plan where you're going to help me buy a new baseball bat or get an investment in a car or something along the way. It's planning and preparation and doing your research. It's like you and I speaking today, I just didn't show up and say, oh, hey, Brian, how you doing? It's looking at some of your other episodes. I've watched them before, seeing other people that's been there. So with my children, I would say it's being ready, doing your research, even starting at an early age, just don't show up, being understanding and knowing what's going on and what you're gonna expect with other relatives. You might be meeting at Thanksgiving or other holidays. And it's trying to bring things back to...
the basics of communication, basic skills, being friendly, being outgoing. And I think that's what it would make for a successful child and a successful business person.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Absolutely. As I was thinking about this scenario, I was reminded of the topic or the technique is about making, it's the what's, going back to the what's in it for them scenario. And the funny one about this is with my wife. So I teach, Productivity Gladiator is about personal practical productivity skills. And AI has been big in this. If you've been paying attention to chat GPT and these different things. So I have been using AI tools.
Like it's my, I jokingly call it my brilliant intern because it's man, I bounce ideas off of it all day long. I use it all the time. It's such a helpful tool. And if you don't use it, you might not necessarily see why you should use it. It doesn't make sense. So I use it all the time and my wife does not use it at all. She has no interest in it. She doesn't see it. And there's so many things that we'll talk about during the day that she would say something. I'll be like,
I would ask AI this, but when I tell her, you should ask AI this, she doesn't, that didn't mean anything, right? So that feature benefit, whatever. So in this case, this funny story that I have is, with AI, the reason I got her to try AI for the first time was we were getting ready to move. We just moved to Florida. We're getting ready to move and we're doing that thing where you got too much in the cupboards.
in the cabinets in the pantry and you're trying to use the last of everything. And I said, you know, you could go, and if you haven't tried this, by the way, you should totally do this right now. You can go on one of these chat GPT or Bard or any of them, there's so many. You go in there and you ask, I have the following ingredients or I have the following things in my pantry, what can I make? And it will send you recipes that you could use. So for the whole two weeks before we left and moved, my wife was all about going on AI to find out what the recipe was that she could use to clean out the cupboard or whatever. And we were both doing it. I mean, I help out in the kitchen occasionally too. And so like we're both using it. But that was the reason she finally tried it was because it was a very specific use case for why it mattered to her. It wasn't just the general benefit of, oh, it's so helpful, but now it's helpful for you because of this and this
That's the thought is, man, making sure that the benefit is personal to them and put it in terms of them. It's not just in general. If you can make it relevant to them specifically, man, what a difference.
Dean Karrel
It's also that lesson of embracing new technology. And it's, you know, you go, when I look back, when I first got into sales, I mean, we didn't have mobile phones, I didn't have computers. I actually did call reports on a typewriter. And I thought whiteout, you know, when you make a mistake on a printer, you can use white. I thought that was a great technology advance. And when I got on the airplane, I was one of the first people who had a Blackberry.
Everybody thought I was so cool. You know, I'm walking around like this, you know, I'm on a Blackberry. What is that? You're getting an email that way. And then within two years, I'm a dinosaur. You know, the evolution, AI, a lot of people say, I don't need this. What is this? What's this all about? Well, your example there is the perfect one of how it can help you do things better. You have to embrace new technology. And salespeople, you know, we talk about customer relationship management software a lot. This is the, when you take all of the information and you put it in the pot and it's all shared. Salespeople don't like that because it's, I'd rather be out selling. I want to work with customers. I don't want to enter data in systems, but CRMs has changed our industry. Salesforce.com, for example, of being able to take data. And, uh, I used to have training programs and salespeople would be going and kicking and screaming. I don't want to do this. I have my own notes. You know, I keep it on a piece of paper. I got it all this way.
I don't want to answer data. And so it's embracing new technology. And now, I mean, a year ago, you know, AI, you know, yeah, we was talking about it, but not like, certainly not using it like we are now, correct?
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Absolutely, it's definitely changing the game. But one of the things is there is a hesitation around it for two reasons I hear most often. One is it might be wrong, and the other is because it's not relevant to me. And so in both of those cases, that is something that if you're prepared for that, it's still a very useful tool. So I...
I not that this we're not talking about AI specifically, but that's just an example. What you said about technology and this be really being relevant is yes, technology is there to help you do the parts of your job that only you can do. So if you think about that, you know, like CRMs, you're right. You would rather be out there selling, oh my God, CRMs are painful sometimes. And, but you know, the power of a CRM is that you can search everything. So one of the topics I, one of the things I teach with Productivity Gladiator is about
uploading your brain. How do you finally remember everything? And the way you do is by not keeping it up here. You have to write it down. So having the CRM with notes for yourself about what are their kids' names? What are the pets' names that you learned? So that when you go do the human part that you can do, or like with families, if you write these things down, if you have a good system for keeping the things you need to remember not up here, oh man.
the power of that is awesome because then you can reference back to it later and you know where that information is even though you can't remember it up here. So it's just funny you brought up the CRM thing because oh man.
Dean Karrel
Yeah, as with the training classes that I've done here, we all used to have the folder, which I still have the folders because I'm a dinosaur salesperson. I still have folders and stuff. But what you have to do with the CRM or any new technology, as you add things, you must eliminate things. That's one of the messages you talk about in your work is about managing your time. And if you could add on CRM, but that means you have to get rid of eliminate the folders or eliminate the notes and put it in the CRM. So it goes back to, I think you've called it like the currency of your life is your time. Correct. And, and how you manage that. And it's a, so it's, um, it goes back to going, doing your research and planning and preparation and learning about you before this. And that's an example, right?
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Yeah. Good memory.
You hear that? Dean, Dean gets an A. Dean gets an A for this. He watched my Ted talk. He remembers the quote. Dean, A plus marks, sir. I'm so honored. I got...
Dean Karrel
Well, there's a lesson. So you want to talk about a lesson? So when you meet somebody, AI can't do that. AI could say you did a TED Talk, which it did, or on your bio talks, but actually me watching you that. I said, okay, I learned more about you. So this is something, a good lesson here is AI can help guide you, but the one-on-one of you and me right now, AI can't do. It's me watching you on stage and seeing your energy and enthusiasm for the topic.
That's what came across. That's what I learned about you. So how do I differentiate myself as a salesperson versus all the other people who are out there is it's taking that extra time to do. Let me watch Brian's Ted talk. You know, it's 18 minutes and right. And I learned a lot about you, your style and your energy, all the things I just said, and it makes an impression, right?
Dean actually took the time to watch this. Dean watched, read my website, looked at things. So how do you as a salesperson, or how is you as a product manager? If you're making a presentation to a group of people in a committee, it's learning about those people beforehand. That's what sales is about no matter what job you're in, is taking the time to learn about people before you meet.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Relationships, customer relationships are key. And what you said is really true in that all of this technology helps us. And ultimately it comes down to the relationships. Most people know this and you probably know this, but the people you know, referrals, like you and I work in a business where referrals is it. People refer us, we talk to someone, they like us, they refer us to somebody else. Referrals are the key and that will never be done with AI ever. Like, or they...
because the person to person thing is never going to go away. The decision makers will always be a person. Even if AI helps a lot of that, the person is still gonna be making the decisions. So going back to our topic for the episode, your kids are still gonna be the one making the decision. Your bosses are still gonna be making decisions. So talking to them as a person and getting, like Dean said, getting to know, doing your homework, knowing about them so you can put it in terms of them. And-
treat them as the person in the relationship. Oh man, like that's invaluable Dean. I love that point. That was good.
Dean Karrel
Well, those are, these are things they don't teach at the Harvard Business School or Stanford Business School. These are lessons of life. And that's the lessons that I talk about with my family and with my friends is, you know, this is, you don't need an MBA or a PhD to figure these things out. It's being authentic. It's being genuine. And it goes down to what you're.
I always talk about the most important thing is what your character is. So in the middle part of my career, as I told you, I tried to change my style a bit and I was a little bit more aggressive and doing the whole, you know, the whole hand movement and stuff. It wasn't me. And it's how do you act when you think no one's good looking at you? You know, how do you act when somebody needs help on the street, trying to cross the street, do you help them or do you keep moving on? How do you act when no one's looking? And, you know, a story I use for that one is the.
I worked in New York City for many years and I used to go to the same coffee shop every day. It's New York City, so it's crazy. The cars are honking. And in New York, they've got the coffee flying and the bagels going and they have it down to a fast system, getting in and out. I went to the same place every day. Well, one day I'm in there and this is the era of when we all wore ties or jackets and this was a casual day for me, meaning I was wearing this, which is casual for me.
And I'm in this coffee shop and something was fouled up. They were getting behind with their orders and everything. And the guy in front of me started getting snippy. Hey, hurry up with my order. Hurry up. And I knew these people behind the counter. And I said to this guy, you know, hey, take it easy. They're doing the best they can. Now, this is like 730 in the morning on a Monday. It's like, what's going on? I mean, I'm going from zero to 100 on Monday morning.
And he gave me the look and he goes, why don't you mind your own business? Fast forward, you know, two hours later, somebody comes into my office and they say, Dean, I'm interviewing some candidates for a job and I'm, perhaps I need to get the second interview and my boss isn't in. Do you mind doing the second interview with somebody? Well, low and behold, who walks in from the coffee shop? Now he's looking, he's looking at me like, how does he know me? And then the, the manager saying,
Brian Nelson-Palmer
It's that guy.
Dean Karrel
This is John Doe and I go, oh no, we've met. And then I said, hey, how was your coffee? And he went white. He went totally white. And a couple of lessons with that, there's two parts of this. I never brought it up to the hiring manager. I would have if there was a flip of a coin. I would have said, you know what, you've got to watch this guy's character because something happened. But I didn't bring it up.
But you know what was interesting? That guy who acted so inappropriately with me, he actually brought it up during his interview saying, you know what, I owe Dean Karrel an apology. This is what happened. And the hiring manager said, well, Dean never told me about that. So it was like a good news thing. It ended up okay after the end of it. And I ended up knowing that guy later on, he never got that job with their company, but it was just an interesting, how do you act when nobody's looking, was he didn't act too well.
And lo and behold, I came back to bite him, but it ended up working out okay in the end. But it's a, I always say, you know, it's a be yourself, be genuine, and your character is who you, the core of who you really are. Whether you're my kids, whether the people who work with me, or certainly you learn that from your managers and the people you report to. You learn a lot how they act when, you know, in their roles.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Absolutely. It is really tempting sometimes to not be of high character and integrity sometimes when nobody's looking. Like it's really tempting to try to cheat or to try to, and what you say really is true, which is if you, what goes around comes around in my life has definitely been so true. And even though in the moment something will seem so unfair because it went to somebody else or something.
What goes around comes around eventually. So I love that. I love that metaphor in that story. Man, coffee shop in New York, there you go. Ha ha.
Dean Karrel
Yeah. Well, I'd say, you know, there are some, I'd say, you've worked for a variety of different people in your career. I'm sure some of them really good and some of them mediocre. I've learned the most from managers who were mediocre. Because I knew that's not how, whenever I ran an organization or managed people, I knew I would never act that way. You know, there are those who, you know, the tough boss.
dictatorship, management through intimidation. And you realize, wow, that's no good. I mean, the company Simon & Schuster since changed. I mean, they're a really great company now. But there was an era there where they were known to be extremely difficult company to work at. At Prontosolver, I first started, my first eight years I had two managers, two managers in eight years. At eight years at Simon & Schuster, I had eight different managers. It was a revolving blower of people coming and going.
It was a great company, best sellers and all of that, but it was an organization where the culture was one of stress and high maintenance. And I knew, at least for me, that was not the approach that I want. Some people thrive in that environment, the high pressure, high stress. I know I don't, and I mean, life's too short. So the lesson I tell people is, when you're interviewing for a company and I'm interviewing with you, Brian, I wanna know about you.
And if you come across as tough and arrogant, I don't know if I want to work with you. So you're interviewing with the company and doing your research about the company, what their reputation and culture might be. And some people will thrive in intense stressful environment and some people don't like it. And I survived eight years, how I don't know, but you know, so.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Yeah. And you know, I, Dean, I'm going to, I gave you an A plus. So now I'm going to earn my A plus, which is the story he just told about being prepared for an interview is straight out of one of the books. So this is one of the, I'm sure, I'm holding it up to the camera. I'll put a link to it, but this is mastering the basics by Dean Carol. And he talks about, uh, do everyday skills. And that's why Dean and I, I love chatting with Dean. Dean and I, he's like a brother from another mother for me, because we talk about
everyday, real practical lessons. And there's a lot in here. And one of the lessons that I was reading right before was that one he just shared that you're interviewing the company, they're not just interviewing you. So little plug for Dean there, if you wanna check out his book. It's a lot of, none of it's too, it's not a long read. I love it, cause it's very short, little practical one page, two page stories and lessons. But there's almost 200 tips in there. So if you're just starting out in your career or an aspiring leader,
There's a lot of really good little nuggets that's not too overpowering. I enjoyed it, so appreciate that.
Dean Karrel
Well, the lesson there also, Brian, is thank you so much for bringing that up, is there's always gonna be somebody that will do the strategic plan for the company, who'll do the chief financial planning, financial officer work, the financial work. There are always people at that top level take care of that. How do you manage a situation of just being intimidated in a group meeting? And these are some of the topics that I talk about. How do you speak up? How do you raise your hand? How do you handle it when somebody does say no?
How do you handle if you get let go? Do you, you know, I've been in situations where, I was at the last company I was at, we did have to make a lot of changes and people were let go in every company, in every industry. And people are let go sometimes very poorly and sometimes people who are let go handle it poorly. It's a business decision and they burned a bridge.
and you never burn a bridge, meaning you never, Brian, I'm never gonna talk to you again. No, you never know. Life may come around and it does. It's amazing how, you know, I talk about, I left Wiley eight, nine years ago, and I left on good terms. I was in great company. I worked there for 20 years. And a lot of people who left and went on to other places, a good many of them went to LinkedIn. And lo and behold, these people at LinkedIn,
said to me, Dean, could you do some sales training courses? So that's how I got connected with them, which is another tip of the importance of another word that makes us cringe sometimes is networking. And we think of networking as like a little badge that says, hi, I'm Brian, or hi, I'm Dean. And it's like coffee break, networking break for over a cup of coffee at a conference. Networking is just how you and I met. I met you through one of your other participants on an episode, we've talked, I've watched your work, and now we're friends, and now I know you. So it's the basic skills of communicating and reaching out with others.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Absolutely. You know, so we've been talking for a little bit. I want to go through a couple other scenarios before we hit the end of our time. So one of the questions I wanted to ask you, Dean, is, all right, now let's look at this through the lens of your boss, because pretty much everybody in the workforce, unless you work for yourself, you have a boss. And so when you're dealing or trying to sell your boss on an idea,
Do you have any funny stories or tactics or advice on that topic?
Dean Karrel
Well, your boss is reporting to somebody also. And it's a, I had a boss at my last company named George Stanley, who I've known for close to 30 years. And the guy has no ego. He was the best boss to ever work for. He managed, he was like, like in a football game where you have somebody who blocks and gets people out of their way. He would keep upper management away from me so that I could go out and work with customers. And so the tactic with him was,
Dean, as long as you're performing and as long as you're continuing to hit your numbers and do it, I'll keep management away from you. And so it's against a two-way street. We're working with customers. Your manager and your boss has obligations too. They've got a salary that they want to hit and they've got obligation objectives that they want to hit. So how can you help them? So with George and myself, it was he would manage up and I would be able to manage.
out. So it's recognizing what situation your manager, you know, might be in. At Simon and Chisholm, I had managers who were such that no matter what I did, I couldn't make them happy because it was the attitude of more, more. So that's where you have to learn. If that's not going to be right for you, you have to move on. And my attitude about this and working with bosses,
and working with managers. There are managers and then there are leaders. And my philosophy about this has changed dramatically through the years where I used to say to people, try to work it out, meet with your tough boss, ask them what you're doing wrong, how you can improve. Yes, you need to do that. But there also is a point where you gotta move on. And it's knowing what that point is. And again, I'm not saying you do that. Every situation is different.
Don't go all go out now and quit your job. That's right. But it's having a plan of, I think you always have to have your resume updated. I think you always have to have your LinkedIn profile updated. And I think you always keep your eyes open for the next opportunity that may or may not be out there. But if you're not happy and a lesson of, if you're working with a boss,
Brian Nelson-Palmer
You're not telling you to quit your job right now. Calm down. I got it haha...
Dean Karrel
And I've said this, if your boss is not good and not helping you, you gotta find an exit strategy. Not tomorrow, but work out a plan for next month or six months from now, or say that by June 1, I wanna find that next opportunity. So the stories there are that, I've said that to people throughout my life, or certainly now in this later phase of my life, is you have a strategy of, the first strategy is, oh, just be quiet.
Suck it up, you'll be all right, stay there. The second one is look around for other opportunities, work with your manager to see if you can come up with better ways of working with he or she better. Number three is you're having a tough situation, keep your eyes open, get your resume ready, keep looking and start networking to look for those other opportunities. And then the fourth is the aggressive one where you say, I gotta get out right now. So there are four paths, I call them the paths, from conservative to aggressive.
And so let's say it's you've been doing that, you've done that, I've done that. And I think it's important for people like you and I who have been down that path to share those messages with people.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Absolutely. It's that one of the best little pieces of advice I've ever gotten was a, was a boss who she said the only person who truly cares about your career is you. So if you're waiting for someone to hook you up or somebody says there's an opportunity or things, people say things, ultimately everybody is, it's the, what's in it for me. We were talking about earlier is also true about
like you in your career. So even though there are some great bosses, one of the best bosses I ever experienced was he truly did things for me. He really, he went out of his way to help. I'll never forget it was, he was the executive vice president and I was one of the general managers and I needed a suit, a special kind of suit for an event that I was going to that he wanted me to go to for the company. And I didn't.
have that and the suit was going to be fairly expensive. And so he said, look, go get the suit, send me the bill, but I want you to go do this thing. So like that's him being really good and he is not ultimately in charge of my career. I am so that dynamic of remembering that you're in the driver's seat of your life. I that's a good point. Dean. I like that a lot.
Dean Karrel
That's a tough one though. That's a, you know, cause you always think that somebody's going to be there to help you. And that's again, become more cynical through the years. Your sphere of really close friends is a lot smaller than you think. We all have a lot of acquaintances and we all have a lot of people we've crossed paths with, but at the end of the day, you do have to look out for yourself. That's a very important message you're giving Brian is that yes, okay, you know, your boss is going to try to help you, but.
and you have a great situation with that boss that did help you with the suit. But when you're looking for a job or you're looking for another opportunity and you reach out to people, I always say you reach out to 10 people, well unfortunately, only four people will get back to you. The other six that you thought were friends or you used to work with, where are they? It's not there. So that's a wake up call. You control your destiny and you get help along the way with other.
You had that manager that you worked for that helped you. I was blessed that my first manager was a guy by the name of Gary Gutchell. I worked for him for 18 months. And his lessons were, show up on time, smile, family comes first, and ask for help when you need it. Don't be afraid to ask for help. I reported to him for 18 months. But the lessons that I learned from those 18 months, I was friends with him.
Sadly, he passed away this past year at 86, but he was a lifetime mentor, friend, coach, because again, the basics of, show up on time. How many times have you gone to a meeting and somebody's 10 minutes late? Where are you? How, right? How difficult is that? Is that freshman business class at Harvard? No, that is Brian and Dean Basics 101. Show up on time, you know. And that's what Brian would, that's what Gary would teach me, those types of skills.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Man, yep. Now, I wanna flip the script one more time. One last question for you, Dean, and that's now let's flip the scenario and now you're trying to sell. You are the manager and you're selling down, right? So now you have people reporting to you underneath you and we need to take things in a different direction. We need to change. We need to, whatever we were doing wasn't working. So if you're in that and you're selling them on, here is the new path.
Here's the path we should take. If you're in that scenario, Dean, what stories and what tactics come to mind for you?
Dean Karrel
Oh, it's tough. That is so tough. And I had been there. I had the greatest job in the world at sales director at Wiley, and then the world changed in 2008, 2010. The retailers began to close. There were shifts in business. People were buying more digital books in our industry, similar to music, similar to every industry. Things changed. So instead of growing and coaching and motivating and encouraging, I was reorganizing and restructuring and I had to convey a message of that the world's changed. And I got good for a while there at Corporate Speak. You know, you know, the world's changed and the business models are different, so we need to make some restructuring and organizational changes. And it was, you know, yay, yay. And what people want to hear, though, is unfortunately the world is changing and it is impacting your world.
and where we're going in the future is, candidly, we have to scale back. You know, you can't, you wanna be able to say, well, we're gonna try to hold you on as long as we can. You gotta be honest and say, you know what? I have a feeling your role's gonna change in the next six months. People want honesty. They're adults. And so when you work with your teams and work with the staff is, people, oh, whether in good times and bad, people wanna be communicated with like adults. They wanna hear the truth.
Corporate speak is a lot of baloney that people can read through very quickly. So it goes to those foundations that I have to be a good manager. It's reputation. You have a good reputation. You have credibility. You have integrity. And then I go back to that word again, character. Those are the four pillars of being a good manager and a good leader of those skills. So when I've worked with people in a very difficult time at Wiley, where hundreds of people were let go.
in different areas of the company. It's showing empathy, showing care, showing compassion, showing understanding and saying, you know what, this does stink and I'm not happy, but this is the reality and we're gonna do everything we can to help you find the next job. I'm fortunate in, I was the bad guy and that's why I left. I couldn't take it anymore. And you know, it's, but it's, it's.
I'm blessed in that in probably 95% of the people I had to let go, I'm still professionally in touch with and still friends with a good many of them. I mean, a few things went sideways and that's normal because I was the bad guy. But people want honesty and empathy, care and compassion. No matter what level and no matter what job you have as a leader is honesty. Look people in the eye and say, Brian, X, Y and Z.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
want to yes and you on this one, Dean. Yes, honesty and treating the person as a person is a big one. And I learned a good lesson from one of your colleagues, Dr. Todd Dewett in the episode that we did on we were talking about telling stories. And one of the things that he shared as a supervisor talking down is if you're going to tell someone that there's going to be a change or something's changing, use the power of a story to go with it, because the story answers the question of why. And if they understand why, then that helps. It doesn't always fix, right? Getting laid off is never fun. No matter what the why is, that's not going to help them. But if they understand why the business is making a change or something, that allows you, Dean, to keep in touch with them later because they know why that you were doing this. And it wasn't because they were a bad or you didn't like them or whatever. If you give them the why, the why helps a lot and telling the why in the form of a story is a really powerful thing. And that was that, that's a very cool, very cool.
Dean Karrel
It's a good point there of the stories that a lot of our conversation today has been about stories and storytelling is great about, it's important in sales or important if you're a project manager, important in marketing, is showing where things have worked prior and where there's been hurdles in the past and using actual examples. And so again, in my case, it was very easy to say.
Borders bookstores have gone out of business. Certain retailers are no longer carrying books anymore. For the right reasons and wrong reasons, Amazon has become more powerful in distributing books. So you could see, you say, look in your own hometown. Look at St. Petersburg, you used to have a lot of bookstores. There's a couple of Barnes and Nobles and Books of Millions and so forth, but there's not the corner bookstore anymore. The world has changed and...
Again, you can go through any profession that's happened. So that's how you tell the stories. Look in your own backyard how things have changed. Look at your own buying habits, how things have changed. And people wanna hear that. Doesn't make it any easier, but if you're honest and open and understanding, at least you're able to convey that message. Todd Doit, by the way, is a superstar. That's an episode that I really enjoyed watching.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Absolutely. And I certainly you can you can check that episode out if you want to learn about telling a good story. Dr. Todd definitely shared some awesome insights with us. So thanks so much for that. So one of the things, Dean, is that I know you and I could just keep talking because we're both like brother from another mother. And my gosh, it's about the basics in real life and not what they teach you at Harvard Business School. I always used to say for me, it's the lessons they didn't teach you in school and the skills they didn't teach you in school when you get out.
So I feel like we can keep going and we can't keep going forever, but we can absolutely reconnect and do this again. So I do. I want to wrap and here's what I want to. I want to end with this. What I want to say is here's what I love. Dean, I love that you're sharing very practical lessons about what real life is and the skills that you need in real life, whether you check out his book on mastering the basics or you're listening to some of the stuff that he does or you go check out a LinkedIn learning.
session that he has. There's a lot of knowledge that's available and what I love, I love that you make it very practical with the good stories and the context to go with it, Dean. So thank you for doing what you do and thank you for coming and talking to me for a little bit today and sharing with us some of that knowledge and some of those stories. I really appreciate it, sir.
Dean Karrel
Brian, we really connected and the reason why we connected is we're being open, honest and just being ourselves. And I think that's an important message is at the end of the day, you can't fake it. And so flaws and all you and me, uh, this is who we are. And how do you build on the strengths you have? Certainly your energy, your enthusiasm, your care for people comes across very, very openly and same with me. And, uh, it's, uh, so you build on that. And, uh,
Maybe you and I run the strategic planning for IBM or some high tech company somewhere, but we will find the path and that's what you've done and that's what I've done that helps people out and in your case, what you're doing with your organization now. So again, I'm so grateful that we've met and you've let me join you today.
Brian Nelson-Palmer
Absolutely. We'll definitely keep in touch. And for you listening, who, if they want to keep in touch with you, Dean, what would you recommend? How do they keep in touch with you if they want to check you out or get in touch with you later?
Dean Karrel
I post regularly on LinkedIn a couple of times a week. I do either do a video or I do a photo story or a comment. I talk about sales related issues, business related topics on LinkedIn. So Dean Karrel, K-A-R-R-E-L. Don't worry about Twitter. Don't worry about Facebook, any of the social media. I'm LinkedIn is where I'm at and that these are the messages that we talked about today. And that's what I talk about on LinkedIn.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (56:51.074)
Dean's committed. He's a LinkedIn guy. That's cool. I'll make sure I share those. I'll share those, those links with you here in the episode notes and for you tuning in. So here's, I got two last opportunities for you. The first one is, if you have a friend or colleague who's in sales or really an aspiring leader somewhere, sales skills are something that you'll use as you rise up in your career. So I, I know Dean and myself would both love if you share this episode specifically with them, because you can certainly tell somebody, Oh, you should check out the productivity gladiator podcast.
But actually having an episode to start with is a hugely helpful thing. And it's also really helpful because that furthers the relationship with them. You sent them a specific one because you thought about them and that's awesome. So I hope you'll share this episode with them. And of course, thanks for subscribing. Thanks for leaving a review to this show. And you can certainly subscribe to the email list if life balance or personal practical productivity are meaningful to you. I do have an email list where I offer something a little extra for you. So...
Don't worry, I don't email every day, but if that's something that's valuable to you, I certainly would welcome you to join the group. So I love sharing Productivity Gladiator with you. That's a wrap.