Stan Phelps joins Brian and explores the deep connection between purpose and productivity. They dig into the importance of aligning personal and organizational goals with a clear purpose.
They also dive into helpful tangents including:
The 4 versions of the workplace and how productivity is tied to the current version 4.0
the significance of warmth in relationships,
Generational shifts in workplace values.
The 8 purpose archetypes
Practical advice for individuals seeking to find their purpose.
The Audio/Podcast
References In This Episode
Purple Goldfish (the first/original book) by Stan Phelps
Red Goldfish (about purpose-driven business) by Stan Phelps
The full Goldfish series of books
Mark Twain's reference to "lagniappe" in his autobiography - What’s a Lagniappe?
Mike McCallowitz (regarding BANG - Big Audacious Noble Goal vs BHAG - Big Hairy Audacious Goal)
Simon Sinek (mentioned regarding the importance of "why")
Episode Digest
Purpose and Productivity: Finding Your North Star
The relationship between purpose and productivity is more profound than many realize. When individuals and organizations align their actions with a clear sense of purpose, productivity naturally follows. But what exactly is purpose, and how does it differ from a simple mission statement?
Understanding Purpose vs. Mission
““People don’t buy what you do. They buy how you do it. And maybe more importantly, why you do it.””
A purpose is your guiding North Star - something that drives you and provides directional guidance. While you may never fully reach that North Star, it serves as a constant guide. This differs significantly from a mission statement in several key ways:
- Purpose is the "why" while mission is the "what"
- Purpose is the calling while mission is the job
- Purpose comes from the heart while mission comes from the head
- Purpose is ambitious while mission is pragmatic
- Purpose focuses on goals while mission outlines the plan
The Evolution of Business Purpose
Business has evolved through four distinct phases over the past century:
1.0 (Pre-1970s): Focus solely on shareholder value
2.0 (1970s): Recognition that customer focus drives shareholder returns
3.0 (1990s): Understanding that engaged employees create happy customers
4.0 (Present): Purpose-first approach driving employee engagement, customer satisfaction, and shareholder value
Actionable Insights for Finding Your Purpose
Use the "Hell Yes or No" Test
When evaluating your purpose, there are only two possible answers - "Hell Yes" or "No." If you're unsure or thinking "maybe," that's effectively a no. Your true purpose should evoke an immediate, enthusiastic response.
Identify Your Purpose Archetype
Organizations and individuals typically fall into one of eight purpose archetypes:
- **Protector**: Environmental/social protection (e.g., Patagonia)
- **Liberator**: Promoting freedom and new ways (e.g., Harley Davidson)
- **Designer**: Creating innovative solutions (e.g., Apple)
- **Guide**: Helping others navigate (e.g., Google)
- **Advocate**: Standing up for causes/groups (e.g., AARP)
- **Challenger**: Questioning status quo
- **Unifier**: Bringing people together (e.g., Whole Foods)
- **Master**: Revolutionizing industries (e.g., Warby Parker)
Understand the Warmth-Competence Dynamic
"People value warmth more than competence. They're both important, but warmth trumps competence every day of the week and twice on Sunday."
People make quick judgments based on two factors:
1. Intent (Warmth): Understanding why someone does something
2. Ability (Competence): Can they deliver on that intent
While both matter, warmth - understanding someone's purpose and intentions - typically matters more in building trust and relationships.
Making the Transition to Purpose-Driven Work
For those looking to align their work more closely with their purpose, here are practical steps:
1. **Start Where You Are**: You don't have to quit your job to pursue purpose. Look for ways to bring purpose into your current role or organization.
2. **Consider Adjacent Moves**: Instead of completely starting over, look for roles in related fields where your experience remains valuable but aligns better with your purpose.
3. **Test Through Volunteering**: Before making major changes, volunteer with organizations that align with your potential purpose to test the fit.
““We used to live in the tyranny of ‘or’ where you either had to pursue something that truly gave you purpose and meaning but live the life of a struggling artist, or do something lucrative but feel empty. Now we’re in the power of ‘and’ - we can have both.””
Bottom Line
Purpose isn't just about feeling good - it's a practical driver of productivity and success. When people understand and connect with why they do what they do, engagement increases, resilience grows, and productivity naturally follows. The key is finding that "Hell Yes" moment and building your path forward from there, whether through dramatic changes or incremental shifts toward your North Star.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Purpose and Productivity
03:01 Stan Phelps' Journey and Marketing Background
05:42 The Evolution of Business Purpose
08:14 Understanding Purpose vs. Mission
10:57 The Importance of Warmth in Business Relationships
13:47 Identifying Your Purpose
16:26 The Power of Purpose in Productivity
18:58 Finding Balance Between Purpose and Compensation
21:57 The Concept of Lanyap in Business
24:40 Purpose-Driven Organizations and Their Impact
27:25 Engagement and Productivity in the Workplace
30:07 The Role of Gen Z in Shaping Workplace Values
32:57 Archetypes of Purpose in Organizations
35:59 Stan's Personal Purpose and Its Impact
38:29 The Goldfish Metaphor for Growth
41:20 Conclusion
Today’s Guest
Stan Phelps
Certified Speaking Professional
Global Speaking Fellow
Author of the GoldFish Series of Books
A show and tell speaker, Stan empowers audiences to take action that delivers bottom-line impact. He strives to change the paradigm of marketing by encouraging audiences to focus on experiences as the ultimate competitive differentiator. He believes purposeful DX wins the hearts of employees and customers, and differentiation ultimately boosts loyalty, retention, referrals, and results.
A masterful storyteller who quickly connects with audiences, Stan has delivered keynotes and workshops for Fortune 100 brands including IBM, Target, Exxon Mobil, Boeing, Caterpillar, Ford Motor, Kroger, Cardinal Health, Walt Disney, UnitedHealth, Rocket Companies, and more.
He works directly with you to customize content that matches your audience and your goals to create a memorable and meaningful experience every time. Count on Stan to show up early, arrive prepared, and disrupt the all-work-and- no-play methodology with his sharp wit and trademark showmanship. He makes it his mission to exceed expectations and inspire audiences in ways they just can’t help but talk about — and won’t soon forget.
Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian shares separate hacks, tips, and actionable learning exclusively for his email subscribers. Sign up so you don’t miss out!
About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a leader at all levels, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. Graduates wield time management & life balance superpowers, activate a laser-guided ability to focus & prioritize, and implement a sniper-precise approach to task & email management. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat!
Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.
Transcript
Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:00.204)
and smile for the start.
I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. And on this show, I talk about personal practical productivity skills. And in this episode, we're talking about your purpose. And here's how your purpose has everything to do with your productivity. With me on the show today, my guest is Stan Phelps, who is a certified speaking professional and global speaking fellow. And he's the author of the Goldfish series of books that are right in this lane.
So Stan, thanks so much for joining me today.
Stan Phelps (00:34.42)
Yeah, thank you for having me, Brian. Great to be here.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:38.412)
and say a bit about your background. we're going to be talking about your purpose and how what that has to do with your productivity. Talk about your relation to that.
Stan Phelps (00:47.22)
Yeah. So I, my background was I worked for a couple of decades in marketing. I've worked with big brands like Adidas, the New York Yankees, the PGA of America. I've also worked on the agency side. and for me, I'll just my personal story. I, I, I worked on some great marketing campaigns and activations, but I started to feel a disconnection in marketing and I thought marketing could be.
have a bigger purpose. And I just knew I was part of the problem and not part of the solution. And I had this kind of moment of truth that led me on this journey to first start a blog where I spent a year just writing about all aspects of marketing. But I was looking for the one thing that I thought could be a game changer. And I found it and it led me down this path of creating this kind of
big goal of collecting a thousand and one examples of this little thing that I found and that ended up becoming a book which has now become a series and now there's 20 books in the series so.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:01.07)
That's amazing. so, and that was in the focuses on marketing or productivity and purpose.
Stan Phelps (02:08.512)
So, yeah, so the, so my background from a marketing perspective was, I used to do stuff that was focused on kind of the eyes and the ears and interrupting. And I thought marketing should be more about the experience and the experience that you specifically create for your clients and customers. and so for me, anyway, when, when I found what my personal purpose was,
my productivity soared because I had a clear kind of north star of where I wanted to go and that led me to do the work that I've done.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:48.384)
I can't wait to talk about you listening. You're North Star and my North Star and Stan's North Star. This sounds fun. Let's let's do this thing. And I got one other question for you before we dive in, though, and that's there's a lot of people who talk about marketing or talk about purpose or productivity. So I also want to know what do you think makes you different from all these other folks that talk about this topic?
Stan Phelps (03:10.758)
great question. what makes me, if I think about myself, we'll talk about maybe some purpose archetypes. I find myself as what I call the challenger archetype. You my purpose is to get people to think differently about how they treat their customers and employees. And so,
I think that separates me a little bit from, those that are quote unquote experts. also what, what separates me, it's not just my opinion. I've collected now more than more than 5 ,000 case studies. And what I do is look through these hundreds of examples to see where I can see how successful organizations navigate in this kind of new economy.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:50.85)
Mm
Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:02.346)
Interesting. OK.
Stan Phelps (04:03.926)
And I truly believe We're in the 4.0 version, Brian, of business. And that purpose is at the center of that. So if I can quickly rewind, think you only have to, you know, The modern corporation or modern business organization really only dates back less than 125 years. Right. And
Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:12.152)
Okay.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:30.69)
Yeah.
Stan Phelps (04:31.542)
For the first 75 years, who came first in the 1.0? It was all about the shareholder and the purpose of a company, if you were being honest for the first 75 years was just to do things to maximize the return to the shareholder. Not a really lofty goal or purpose.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:59.952)
You
Stan Phelps (05:01.27)
In the 1970s, so you only have to go back less than 50 years. I think there was a kind of a shift to the 2.0 and the 2 .0 said, yeah, profit is important and return to your share low is important, but ultimately you can't do this. you know, the purpose of business is to create and to keep a customer.
And so if you put your customers and your clients first, then ultimately you're going to be successful and you're going to generate that return for shareholders. The 3.0 Brian, think is, you know, dates back to maybe the early 1990s where there really was an understanding that, you can put the customers first every day of the week.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:28.888)
Yeah.
Stan Phelps (05:55.03)
But unless you have employees that are actually engaged in that mission, right? And in that, that you're never gonna be able to create those happy. So you can't create happy enthused customers unless you have happy engaged employees. So the 1990s in this 3 .0 was really a recognition of how important employees and culture was.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (06:02.669)
Yeah.
Stan Phelps (06:24.854)
Well, I think you only have to go back less than 15 years ago where we're in now what I call the 4.0 and that's where purpose comes first and that if you put purpose and if you understand your why, right? And especially for the younger generations coming in that really want meaning in what they do. If you put that at the center of what you do,
You get your employees more engaged in bought in your customers benefit from that. And ultimately you create an environment where you're creating that return for your shareholders. So putting purpose first.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:07.446)
Yeah. Purpose first. Well, that really, you kind of struck at the my my first question to you is going to be alright. So what do we really mean by purpose? So let's let's jump into that. So you said put purpose first. So what do mean by purpose? Is it the purpose of why we show up or the purpose of the business? Is that just the mission statement and everybody has a mission statement? Talk about
Stan Phelps (07:32.764)
No, I think there's a bit and we'll get into, I think there's a big difference between a mission and a purpose. So you think about any type of organization, maybe your purpose, Brian or mine or for any organization, it essentially started with the founder and why, what was the why behind creating the organization?
Stan Phelps (08:02.186)
To me, a strong purpose is like this guiding North Star. It's something that drives you. It helps you from a directional point of view. You may never get to that, that North Star, but it's always there as a guide in the background for why you do what you do. And I, you know, I'll give a lot of credit to Simon Sinek, who I think is really
Brian Nelson-Palmer (08:09.1)
There's the North Star. Yeah.
Stan Phelps (08:30.998)
kind of shine the light that people don't buy what you do. Essentially they buy how you do it. And maybe more importantly, why you do it. And the companies, the companies that do really do well have a strong understanding of, their why, and they're able to create meaning for the employees that, that are part of the organization.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:00.236)
Yeah. So it's the why behind what you do. do you have sort of an example on the difference between a mission statement versus your purpose or what that actually looks like in words?
Stan Phelps (09:14.676)
Yeah, so to me, if you understand what your purpose is, Brian, then your mission is the things that you do to kind of work towards that North Star or purpose. So if the purpose is the why, to me, the mission becomes the what. If the purpose is the calling for why you do what you do,
The mission becomes the job that leads you to that. If the purpose is all about the heart, to me, the mission is all about the head, right? And to me, the purpose is very ambitious, where the mission tends to be more pragmatic. Does that make sense? The purpose is about the goal. The mission is more about the plan. Yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:10.85)
Got it. That makes sense. then, so, so how do you, how do you know? How do know if you're acting on the right purpose?
Stan Phelps (10:24.502)
Well, I think, I think in a certain sense, and it's based on how our brain has evolved, Brian, I don't know if you've ever, know this, but 80 % of how we view other people comes down to just two basic questions. So the first question is always this. What is the intent of this person that I'm working with or we're dealing with?
Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:43.136)
OK.
Stan Phelps (10:52.372)
And then very quickly, number two is what's their ability to carry out that intent? So this is how our brain evolved. Our survival depended upon us making split second judgments about everyone and everything we came into contact with. And so that intent piece is what social psychologists call warmth. Warmth.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:52.62)
Yep.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (11:01.105)
Brian Nelson-Palmer (11:12.706)
Yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (11:22.232)
done.
Stan Phelps (11:22.898)
And the ability to carry it out, they describe as competence, warmth and competence. And, here's the thing, when people understand why you do something, they understand your intent. That is a key critical driver of how people view you. And then of course, you can't survive without being competent.
Right, so you have to back up what you do. But let me ask you a question, Brian, what do you think's more important, warmth or competence?
Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:03.402)
It depends. My my immediate reaction is it depends. And it's because it depends on the circumstances and what I need.
Stan Phelps (12:08.2)
It depends. You have to get off the fence, but more often than not, what do you think is more important to people? Warm or competent?
Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:16.097)
Okay.
more often than not, competence, probably. Although warmth is what starts the you wouldn't engage with them if they're competent and not warm. having said that out loud, I think I'd probably warmth is probably the starting point.
Stan Phelps (12:35.144)
It is people value warmth more than competence. They're both important, but warmth trumps competence every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Yeah. So, so, so here's the thing. How do, how do people, and again, it's, we make these judgments at a very subconscious level and we make it very quickly. And then we start to look for things that confirm
Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:50.05)
You know, that has to.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:59.181)
Yeah.
Stan Phelps (13:04.968)
our initial bias or judgment, right? So people understanding why you do what you do is absolutely key. And I think, you know, I think we used to live from when we thought about what we did for a living, we used to live in what a friend of mine calls the tyranny of or.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:09.038)
Okay.
Stan Phelps (13:34.398)
right, Brian, where you either had to pursue something that was truly gave you purpose and a sense of meaning. But if you did that, you live the life of like a struggling artist, right? Or, and the order that is you, did something that was, you know, very lucrative.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:34.402)
Okay.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:52.577)
Right. Yeah.
Stan Phelps (14:02.506)
but at the end of the day, there wasn't a sense of meaning or purpose in what you did. And so you might be very successful, but you might feel empty as a result. And I think we are now in a place where instead of the tyranny of war, my friend David Howitt calls it the power of and.
We can have purpose, but we don't have to sacrifice. We can have both, right? Profit and purpose. Yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:28.876)
Okay.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:38.136)
Yeah.
this. Yeah. Together. Do well so then that I loved that that interlude is really powerful with the I like the warmth part that it starts with warmth. That's really true when you think about all of your business relationships and who you refer, who you recommend. Most all of that is based on warmth. Even if it weren't competent, if you're going to refer your friend or colleague to somebody, and they were incredibly competent, but they were not warm, you would probably not
Stan Phelps (15:09.992)
No.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (15:10.044)
you wouldn't make that intro like job interviews, all of that. I love that tangent. And we
Stan Phelps (15:15.166)
And here's the thing, when you deal with somebody who is high warmth, you have a sense of why they do what they do. And then they're highly competent. Here's the feeling that we get from that experience is one of pride. Like we feel, we understand, we feel part. And absolutely to your point, we go out of our way, not only to come back, but to tell other people.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (15:31.203)
Yeah.
Stan Phelps (15:42.674)
about our experience and we become advocates for those organizations.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (15:46.722)
Yeah. Yeah. So then, and that kind of circles back to the question then on how do you know that you're acting on the right purpose? How do you know that you found it? You got it.
Stan Phelps (16:01.514)
Yeah, so great. So I think, I think intuitively we can feel it like in our gut when we know we're doing something. So I, I'm a big, big believer of like, listen to your gut, right? We can rationalize in our head, a lot of the things that we do, but we can feel when we're off course or we're off center and we're not doing something for the right reason.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:07.139)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Stan Phelps (16:29.394)
I think it's also a part of understanding who we are and what, when have we been in situations where we feel like we're kind of in the pocket or in the zone, like we're doing something that we believe in and that we're really good at it. We may not have mastered it, but we feel like we're truly engaged in what we do. And I think the more that we can understand that,
Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:42.691)
No.
Stan Phelps (16:56.84)
We can go from looking at something that we view just as a job Right and there's nothing wrong with having a job you get paid you can support your family you support yourself But I think we can start to move to from a job to more of a career And when you have a career you tend to be more invested Right, you're you're in it for the long haul But I think even if you have just a career
Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:19.851)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Stan Phelps (17:25.672)
If you can move a little bit more further and get to where it feels like more of a calling, like this is what you would do even if you weren't getting paid for it, is where I think there's true power. And so I think it's trying to get move on that continuum to figure out where do we feel like we're more called and that we get energy back from doing the work that we do.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:32.334)
calling.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:42.861)
Yeah.
Stan Phelps (17:55.614)
And when we do that, and when we're fully engaged, we're more productive. and it just fuels us in terms of what we do. Whereas if we're doing something that we feel is more like a job, we tend to procrastinate. We tend not to be engaged. We don't take pride in what we do. and I think our productivity suffers.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:24.664)
You know, I think I, one of the phrases that always that I've, I've kind of lived helped change. It changed my life. This phrase changed my life and that there's only two answers to the question. Hell yes or no. And that's really it. And so when I, to go back to my question was, how do know you're on the right purpose? I think if you ask yourself that question and the answer is, I think so that's no, there is only two answers. And if it's not hell yes.
then it's no. And I think that drives to your point too, where if you ask yourself, is this my purpose? And your answer is hell yes, this is it, then I think you got it. But if it's maybe, then you're probably not quite there. No, that's not your purpose yet. You haven't found it yet. You can be close, but it's hell yes or no. And that seems to go with what you're describing is like you go from your career to your calling. I mean, I think it sort of all
Stan Phelps (19:21.758)
Right. Yeah. I agree. And here's, here's the thing. I think, there's a guy named Mike McCallowitz and I love how he says this. says, we need to move away from B hags. Do know what a B hag is? A big, hairy, audacious goal. Right. So, you know,
Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:22.594)
the same soup that we're talking about here.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:42.996)
a data goal. Yes. Yeah. they got so many of those phrases. Yeah. I've never heard me hag but
Stan Phelps (19:49.438)
And what I love, what he talks about, says, we need to get rid of the BHAG and get what he calls a bang. And a bang is a big, audacious, noble goal. Right? How do we get in touch with something that we've truly believe in? And how can we, know, towards that North Star, how do we create something
that really taps into that, that we can feel good as we move towards it, right? And it aligns with what our purpose is. So I'm a big fan of that. You know, my big purpose is to get people to think differently about how they market their businesses and to be more about the customer and less about thinking about marketing as, you know, like trying to chase the prospect and get them in the funnel.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:47.244)
Right. Yeah. gosh. I feel you there. My my purpose is to teach personal practical productivity skills, but not so that you can then work more hours or do more stuff. The point is, if you're more productive, that means you are a top performer at work and there is still time for you to have the amazing life you want to have to. Because if all you do is work, that's where the midlife crisis and that's just so I'm with you on.
It's the why the why is not so that you can work more or do more work or work more hours. It's so that you can have that time. So I, yeah, I like that Stan. So we've been
Stan Phelps (21:25.59)
Sure. You can have the power of and work and life, right?
Brian Nelson-Palmer (21:30.286)
Yes, it is the whole work. mean, work life balance. This all came to the forefront with COVID, especially I've been doing this long before COVID. But, that was the, that was the piece that really started. People were paying attention because now you used to be forced to separate them because you were working at work and you were at home at home. so life created the differentiation for you. But when you do them both at home now,
You have to figure that out and you have to defend your life. It's easy to anyway. That's a total side note. But yes, that man, the why I love this conversation. It's giving me goosebumps, Dan. I like this like, all right, we're on this. We're on this right track. It's like the feels good. So let's let's take that pivot then because the purpose it was talking about how purpose changes your levels up your productivity. So let's say you're on the right path or you're close your hell yes, your
Stan Phelps (22:03.381)
Right.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (22:28.93)
You got the North Star, you're headed toward the North Star. now how does that, what does that have to do with productivity?
Stan Phelps (22:32.063)
Right.
Stan Phelps (22:37.6)
Well, again, I think when you're aligned with what you do and why you do it, it just makes the how that much easier. You're just more focused and more engaged in what you do. And we all know how we feel when we're, we've got a hundred percent engagement towards something rather than trying to just check something off the list. And, and my,
my lens that I look through is to try to get people away from just transactional the transactional nature of business right you give me x I give you y and the problem with that it's a zero -sum game brian where where can you go when you you want x I give you y it's equal you can't go anywhere
So what I love is this concept of doing a little bit more, something that gets added as part of the transaction. It's a term that comes from New Orleans. It's called Lanyard. And it dates all the way back to the 1800s. And it was back then and it's still around now. It's typical.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (23:58.455)
Okay.
Stan Phelps (24:06.102)
for a business to do a little something added to honor the relationship. And to me, when you can start doing that and you can start doing little things that kind of elevate your purpose and bring it to life in service of your clients is when it gets really powerful.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (24:29.346)
Yeah, it's that little something extra. that it's the it's what they always say exceeds expectations. It's the exceed, but it's planned exceeds expectations, not just oops. I'm so glad you're happy and you loved it that much. It's no, I plan to make it that good that much. And here's the plan on how we try to do that.
Stan Phelps (24:46.354)
Right and here And here's the thing this is this was the turning point that led me on this this kind of moment of truth We all have moments of truth that lead us on these journeys for me brian, It was a simple interaction that I had in New York City. I'm at one of these rooftop bars And i'm waiting with a colleague. We're about to go to a networking event
Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:00.163)
Yeah.
Stan Phelps (25:12.7)
And I meet this older gentleman who's on his own. and he's obvious. He's waiting for someone as well. And I just strike up a conversation and somehow we got on the idea of being on time and the importance of being on time. And I'll never forget it, Brian. He looked at me in the eye and he said, no one in life is ever on time.
And I said, wait a second. go, I've been on time before. go, not often, but I've been on time. And I'll never forget, he stuck his finger in my face and he gave me the Dikembe finger wave. And he went, no, no, no. And he doubled down. goes, Brian, goes like this. goes, he goes, in fact, he said, on time is a myth. He said, no one in life ever is just on time. He said, people in life.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:44.444)
huh.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:49.698)
Yeah
Stan Phelps (26:08.328)
are either early
or they're late. He said, no one is ever just on time. And I'll never forget, I took the train home where I was living in Connecticut at the time. And I thought to myself, that same reasoning applies to everything we do. And think about things that we do for the clients and the customers that we serve. Does anyone just simply meet expectations?
Brian Nelson-Palmer (26:34.466)
Yeah. Yeah.
Stan Phelps (26:40.596)
And if you use that same reasoning, no, you either exceed them or you fall short. And so given the choice of doing more or doing less, I started to look for companies that did little things. Now, as it relates to purpose, the fifth book in my series is called the Red Goldfish. And it was inspired, why Red was inspired by Bono.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (26:58.434)
Mm
Stan Phelps (27:10.194)
of U2. Are you familiar with the red campaign?
Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:10.934)
Okay. Okay.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:16.107)
No, tell me about that.
Stan Phelps (27:18.742)
So the red campaign, there's just a ton of companies that have kind of partnered in this, but it's a very simple concept. So Apple, for example, as part of the red campaign, they will create a certain product, maybe like an iPhone that's red. And the idea is it's a limited edition product, special product. And when you buy it, certain, certain part of your purchase goes towards
charity. And so it was this model that could raise money, not by just giving money, but by buying something and being working with for profits that gave a little something back as part of it. And so the red goldfish, my, my coauthor and I, Graham Newell, we looked at over 300 organizations.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:51.277)
Interesting.
Stan Phelps (28:17.556)
that really were purpose driven of how they did little things to be able to bring their purpose to life for both their employees and their customers.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:20.835)
Okay.
Yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:27.875)
Got it.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:32.376)
That's so a little something extra and to give back. I like this. Are we?
Stan Phelps (28:36.084)
Yeah. And to bring that purpose in the wide of life. Yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:41.87)
So let's circle back to the productivity part of it then. So if you have your purpose and you said that has everything to do with your productivity, it, are we talking really about it's the want and the desire, I found my why, so you're willing to do more and so you're more enthusiastic, which means you do more or is there, talk about the productivity aspect of it.
Stan Phelps (29:06.048)
So I think when you understand your why, again, I think you're more engaged. I also think you're more resilient, right? You're able to look at things not as problems, but as challenges. And every challenge can be addressed. And when you realize that, hey,
Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:17.431)
Okay.
Stan Phelps (29:33.534)
I'm working towards this higher purpose. You realize, Hey, in your lifetime, you may never get to that North star, but if you can see incremental progress to me, that fuels productivity. and here's the thing we, again, I'm going to go back to, do a lot of work with organizations around employee engagement. And when people are bought into the Y for the organization,
They're more productive. They stick around longer and they're more engaged in what they do. And just as a byproduct of that, again, having that engagement being bought in, you tend to be more productive.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:13.667)
Yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:24.664)
You know, I think it's probably important that we talk about the the focus that it gives you by locking in on that purpose, too, because productivity just isn't just about the number of widgets or the number of emails you respond to or the number of tasks you complete. But it's also about moving you toward that North Star. And so if you're focused on that purpose, it also keeps you from going off all of the side tangents that come up.
all the time. Your boss has, here the boss comes and they say, hey, I think we might have a, you know, a new opportunity here to do something else, to add to what we're already doing. And everybody's looking at the boss going, I'm already busy. What do you, what, with what bandwidth do, should we do this? And the boss is thinking it's a good idea. Cause maybe they went to a conference or they got some idea from somebody and they read some book and they're like, let's do, let's do this too.
And you could look at them and talk about the North Star and say, hey, did we, does this fit that? Is this going to move us closer to that? And is it better than all the other things that we're already doing at doing that? And that way it keeps you because by choosing not to do the things that won't take you to the North Star, you will go significantly faster toward that North Star by maintaining that focus on your purpose, your why. think that's
Stan Phelps (31:23.434)
Right.
Stan Phelps (31:32.192)
towards that.
Stan Phelps (31:36.948)
Right.
Stan Phelps (31:51.496)
Right. Yeah. And here's the thing, the Gen Z's that are now coming into the workplace and have for the last decade almost, they're looking at meaning and purpose and they're putting that ahead of compensation. They're the first generation to do that entering the workforce. So if you can't be able to attach meaning to what they do,
Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:52.696)
That's huge.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:16.493)
Really?
Stan Phelps (32:22.526)
And you can't, in addition, you can't give them the flexibility of how they do that. They're going to find somewhere that does.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:33.666)
Man, Stan, I don't know. I struggle with that. Because I think, I mean, you listening, if you listening right now, think about your own paycheck. If they, if you were to have an outstanding purpose and your money were to, and the pay that you're getting were to be less. I see them both as tied, but I have a hard time thinking that they would choose purpose over compensa
I don't know. It's the you're you challenged me earlier with you have to pick one. And so I guess I see that but ooh, I just
Stan Phelps (33:06.954)
Again, I don't think it's an or, it's an and. And here's the thing. Again, I'm just saying as they rate opportunities that they're thinking about, purpose and meaning is more important. And here's the thing, when they get into the organization, if the organization's values don't live up,
Brian Nelson-Palmer (33:10.891)
and yep.
Stan Phelps (33:37.287)
to kind of what they've been told, six out of seven will leave when the values no longer fit with their own and what they've been kind of sold when they're coming in.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (33:51.778)
Yeah. Wow, that's I mean, it's definitely true. And I think to to some extent, every one of us thinks about that, too, because even if you have like earlier, you were talking about you have the really high compensation, but not good purpose. And then over time, it just it's not really sustainable. And then at some point, you're just going to it's the midlife crisis. It's the my gosh, what have I been doing with my life?
The people who are really mission oriented don't have midlife crisis is where they need to go buy the sports car and like that's not a thing. If the why and the North Star, they've been headed that direction. So like the compensation. Yeah, it's the end because you can't you do need to have some of that purpose and you can find that purpose in a lot of different ways. It doesn't have to be. I feel like there is I don't know. Tell me what you think about this, Dan, because
Stan Phelps (34:32.51)
Right, right. There's alignment.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:49.674)
I have always struggled with the idea. Like for example, I'm a diabetic and I need health insurance. And so I maintain a day job, though productivity gladiator is my calling. And I do that because I have to pay my bills and diabetes is a freaking expensive disease to have to live with every day. So I don't have the luxury yet of only doing the North star free, burn the boats, forget everything else. I'm just going to figure it out. So
Stan Phelps (35:09.984)
Right.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:19.242)
I found an and, and my day job career is actually pretty fulfilling. So I think there is a world where you can be, if you're moving toward your North star, maybe at a little slower pace and the day job compliments that, you can do that sustainably. I don't feel like I have a midlife crisis and I need to quit everything and buy a sports car.
Stan Phelps (35:46.592)
Right.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:48.792)
freaking love the life I have. I struggle with that sometimes because I agree that if there's one purpose, it makes it easier. But I do think that there's balance. Talk about that.
Stan Phelps (36:00.31)
Well, I, I don't think it's an or thing, right? And I think there's the power in the AND. You can do both. In fact, you know, it's like 40% now, of people in the workplace, don't just have one job. They have multiple jobs, right? And, and, and this is interesting. This is the first time.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:20.279)
my
Stan Phelps (36:28.534)
I talked about Gen Z earlier. This is the first generation that when they asked, would you want to go work for a company or would you rather work for yourself? Over 60 % picked, I'd rather work for myself. And then they're also the first generation. Like I say, if there's one word that really encapsulates them, it's integration.
Right? They don't see like I'm a gen X or for us it was work life balance, right? Work hard, play hard for them. It's like they can wake up in the morning, work, take time and take time in the late morning for themselves. Go back. mean, literally go back and forth. That's inconceivable to probably my generation. They can work two or three jobs.
Right. And I think part of that is probably there's probably a side hustle or something that they do that's really fulfilling to them that allows them to have, you know, the life that they want, and the control and flexibility that they want as well.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (37:42.776)
It's true.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (37:47.148)
Yeah. I like that. Well, Stan talk about, so what does your purpose need? Let's say you're, you're sitting here. We, we, we asked that question earlier. We talked about if you're not at the right purpose, then, you know, it's the hell yes or no. If you're thinking about your purpose and where you're going right now and the answer is not hell yes. Then what is your purpose need? What do you do? Stan? What's your advice to that person? Listen.
Stan Phelps (38:14.646)
Well, I don't know if I have a ton of advice for for from a personal perspective other than To trust your gut look back in your life when you've been the most engaged where you felt A strong attachment to what you did you felt meaning in what you did? When my co -author graham and I looked across these 300 organizations
My struggle was, Hey, it's not just important to know your why, but I said, are there types of wise out there? Because I wanted companies to go, I can see myself in this archetype, right? My purpose might ultimately be different. So I'll give you, there's eight archetypes. When we looked across these hundreds of organizations. and really quickly, the first is what we call the protector.
archetype. So think of like Patagonia out there. They're all about the environment, right? Giving back, creating more sustainable world. The second type is the liberator and the liberator is all about freedom. It's about finding new ways to do things. you know,
Giving people personal freedom. like Harley Davidson is a what I call a liberator, liberator archetype. They're all about helping people define their own freedom and identity through my motorcycling. the third one is the designer. You know, the designer is looking at new ways to be able to do things like Apple's a great example of like a designer brand. How can they create simplicity? The fourth is.
what we call the guide. And so the guide kind of helps people navigate. so Google is a great example of of the guide. The fifth is what we call the advocate and the advocate is they stand up and they're you know they they're advocating for a group or a cause or something like AARP is a great example of an advocate.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (40:16.172)
Hmm.
Stan Phelps (40:33.204)
The, the, the six type is the challenger and the challengers, you know, I put myself in that category. It's really challenging people's way of doing things and figuring out maybe there's a better way. And it pains me to say this because I used to work for Adidas, but Nike to me is the ultimate challenger brand.
They're like, if you have a body, you're an athlete. Like everyone can be an athlete. and they give you the tools and the tips and the motivation to be able to go out and achieve the seventh type is what we call the unifier. And the unifier is about kind of bringing people together. and like whole foods is a great example of that. Like really trying to.
through their packaging and through everything they do to kind of bring more sustainability and define what organic means. They're trying to unify the industry. The last one is what we call the master. And this is kind of like Jedi type of stuff or like Yoda would be the example. We have
people that represent each of these archetypes and like Yoda is the one, the ultimate master. And that's really rethinking the way an industry works and being super attached to purpose. like Warby Parker is a great example of like revolutionizing eyewear, but doing it in a way that be able, gives back in a sustainable way.
And also leads the way for how other organizations can act in that manner So protector liberator designer guide advocate challenger Unifier master to me if you can see yourself in one of those archetypes it may be easier for you to Understand what really motivates you for your why?
Stan Phelps (42:48.852)
And at least from an organizational level, that's what I was really happy with being able to contribute to that conversation.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (42:57.472)
And Stan, I want to yes and you on that because I love there are definitely a couple of those archetypes that I think that I identify with and it makes sense that you and I know each other and we keep in touch and stuff because challenger is one of the ones that I also because that's productivity gladiator is about challenging the way that you've always done your personal practical activity stuff. And how do we level that up? But also for the wise. So like I identify with some of that.
Stan Phelps (43:20.159)
Right?
Brian Nelson-Palmer (43:26.55)
And my yes and here is if you're listening to this or watching this and you want more purpose, there is this fallacy that I think is out there that I want to I want to squash this right now, which is you don't have to totally quit your job and quit your life and start over to get going in that direction. What you can do instead and what I hope that you'll do two things. One, if you're miserable at your job,
and you definitely know you need to totally shift because your eight hours that you work is just painful, then think about One of the biggest hurdles that people have is the golden handcuffs. You talked about getting the money back, right? You like you, you make a good salary so you don't want to lose how far you've come in the salary bracket and go all the way back to the start. And you can't do that. People with families can't do that. People with diabetes can't do that. But what you can do is find the companies that are
Stan Phelps (44:01.216)
Right.
Stan Phelps (44:07.637)
Right.
Stan Phelps (44:14.933)
Right.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (44:23.99)
like the archetype, like you just said, and find one that is tangentially related to the career you already have and the experience you have. so you won't drop down. So like, for example, it was, I'm going to call her out. My sister was was trying to make a switch and she was in, She worked in property management and She wanted to get out of property management. But
Stan Phelps (44:33.652)
Right.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (44:49.962)
She if you go to another career, you have to go all the way back to the bottom. So instead, what you can do is what are the things that are tangentially related to property management where all that experience counts for something, but the business does something else. So it could be property management software or it could be a service that supports property management or it could be something with Airbnb or something where all of that property management counts for something.
Stan Phelps (44:54.346)
Right.
Stan Phelps (45:10.432)
right.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (45:16.972)
And same thing if you're in I .T. and you're tired of writing code and you want to bring it like that's that's that thing. So if you look for the companies that have the archetype like Stan's talking about and you look for the ones that are tangentially related to what you have, that's a way for you to make a move without having to go. It's like shoots and ladders where you take the shoot that goes all the way back to the beginning and starting like, no, don't do that. You don't have to or volunteer, volunteer with everybody. These volunteers volunteer with an organization, find a nonprofit that does this.
Stan Phelps (45:36.606)
Right.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (45:45.996)
and volunteer with them and try it out. Start the hardest part is to start. So that's I hope that you'll you'll take Stan's idea of archetypes. I love, love, love that. And don't just sit on it. Do something about it with take a little step. Try a little something. Go volunteer. Bring your family to volunteer. You know, there's there's ways to do this. That's a.
Stan Phelps (45:49.438)
Right.
Stan Phelps (45:58.602)
Right.
Stan Phelps (46:07.022)
And I think what's interesting is that it used to be, and again, go back business wise. It was always an or question. were either for profit or you were nonprofit. And now with B Corpse.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (46:20.534)
Not productive. Yeah.
Stan Phelps (46:24.498)
certified B Corps, corporate benefit corporations. there's now this gray area between the two. And this was the premise of our book is that going forward, people will not look at you either as nonprofit or for profit. They will either look at you as for purpose or not for purpose. And they're going to want to work for
and do business with companies that are for purpose. And that's where I think you have to align yourself going forward.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (46:53.272)
Bye bye.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (47:03.148)
Yeah, Stan, talk about this for you. What does this mean for you personally? What drives you about this? This is your North Star, but what is it about this that drives you? What does this mean for you?
Stan Phelps (47:20.298)
Well, for me, through the keynotes and the workshops that I give, it all ties back to that initial purpose, which was to get people to think differently about business and less about trying to attract the prospect and more about taking care of the customers. And so my marketing background, I thought the customer was the end all and be all.
And then I realized, no, because the companies that I studied that really got it for the customers put their employees first. And then when I started to study the companies that really put their employees first, I realized really quickly, hey, they're also really steeped in why they do what they do. And they put purpose before even their employees.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (48:01.397)
No.
Stan Phelps (48:19.35)
And so everything I've done now that 11, 11 different colors in the series, and we've talked about red, you know, it's all been for me, how my thinking has evolved over, over the years and how I've looked at different things, but it's all led back to that North star of rethinking business, and putting more of an emphasis on the experience that we provide, what I call
a differentiated experience.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (48:52.098)
Yeah. Now, Stan, we've talked about a lot today. If people are interested in our conversation, and well, I say we've talked about a lot, but also you've written a lot of books about this now. You're quite accomplished in the author. If you haven't looked up Stan, check out his books. I'll drop the link so you can see his books there. But oftentimes, where do you start in that? So if you were really inspired by Stan and I's conversation, Stan, which book should they pick up to start with what we've been talking about?
Stan Phelps (49:22.014)
Yeah, I think either red goldfish or you could go back to, call it the OG, the original goldfish. That's purple. And the first three in the series is purple, customers, green is employees, and gold are your most important customers and employees.
Stan Phelps (49:49.96)
And that was strategic because the three colors of Mardi Gras are purple, green, and gold. And New Orleans, New Orleans is the birthplace of that word I shared before, Lanyap, the idea of doing a little bit more, a little bit more that the, to honor the relationship. And, yeah. And then I'm not going to share the rest of the colors cause we'd be here all day.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (50:17.78)
Right? Well, and I thought that was an incognito way of you telling us that you're actually kind of a party boy and you just like to, mean, it's Mardi Gras. And so like, heck yeah, let's get the beads and let's go down to Bourbon Street. Come on, baby. Like I thought that's where we were going. So, there's a profound meeting. land yap. All right. Got it. I got, there's a piece of me that's disappointed, but someday we'll go to Mardi Gras together, Stan. And I'm sure that'll be a heck of a good time.
Stan Phelps (50:37.845)
Right.
Well, I always loved sharing this Mark Twain in his autobiography, you know, he spent a fair amount of time in New Orleans when he was young. He said in his, in his autobiography said, land yap is a word worth traveling all the way to New Orleans to get. And so my, my hope is we've saved maybe Rob, some people have some fun today, but we saved them some time and money.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (51:12.518)
sure. I you know, you didn't have to travel all the way to get it. You discovered it. Stan revealed the secret you you secret teller you look at you. That's funny. Well, Stan, here's what I love. I love that you're taking this, this purpose in this land yap and these these these nuggets that you've that you've captured over the years and that you're putting them into these books and the speaking and all of the work that you're doing. I saw Stan
I give a presentation, a keynote at a conference that he and I were both speaking at back in, gosh, it was 2014, 2015. And yeah, boy, it's scary to think how long ago that was. But at the same time, I definitely remember looking around and everyone in the room was very focused in on what Stan was saying because he talked about himself as a challenger archetype. And Stan, will absolutely vouch for testimonial given right here that
Stan Phelps (51:48.118)
10 years ago, 10 years ago, yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (52:09.794)
challenge your archetype and helping you think a little differently and think more profoundly. I give you a super high mark. So I love that you're doing this and continue to do this because it's not easy being speaking and author and all of that. That's not an easy path for sure. So thanks for doing this and thanks for joining me on the show today.
Stan Phelps (52:30.516)
Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me, Brian.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (52:33.982)
And I'll drop the links to your books, especially the red and the purple as starting points for folks if they're just checking out the Goldfish series first. last thing, why Goldfish?
Stan Phelps (52:45.046)
So goldfish is a metaphor for growth. So the average goldfish is about the size of your thumb, just over three inches. If you had to guess, Brian, what do you think the largest goldfish in the world is? Not a carp or a koi. How many inches? Yeah, largest goldfish in the world.
Stan Phelps (53:17.462)
almost 20 inches right
Brian Nelson-Palmer (53:21.847)
That's from your like your elbow to your hand. I mean,
Stan Phelps (53:25.258)
That is the size of an average domesticated house cat. That's average. That's average, right? And so the quick, and I'll try to do it quick for you. It would be like you walking out of your house right now or your apartment, right? And bumping into somebody who's three stories tall.
Stan Phelps (53:55.764)
Right? How is that? We can't even conceive that right? five to six times our size, but here's the deal. If you're a goldfish, your, they grow their entire life. Their growth is impacted by five factors. And here's the thing. Those same five factors apply to everyone and their business. And I'll go through them really quick to tell you the goldfish growth factor.
Stan Phelps (54:25.598)
Most people have heard the first one, Brian, the size of the bowl or the pond will influence your ability to grow. So if you're a goldfish, the bigger the bowl, the bigger the pond, the more they grow. What is the size of the bowl or the pond? If you're in business, it's simply the market, right? The market for people that are interested in productivity.
Stan Phelps (54:55.432)
right? The market for people who are looking for a keynote speaker or workshop facilitator. Here's number two and it's dead simple. If you're a goldfish, your growth is also determined by the amount of other goldfish in the bowl or the pond and this one works in the opposite direction. The more goldfish there are, it tends to limit their growth. So, who are the other goldfish in business?
Brian Nelson-Palmer (55:20.654)
Interesting.
the other companies, the other organizations. Yep.
Stan Phelps (55:25.694)
Other yeah, you're a competition The third one is the most difficult for a goldfish. They're also Influence their growth is influenced by the surrounding environment that they're in So the quality of the water that they're in will also play a role in their growth. So the nutrients the clarity of the water So what's that in business? It's simply the economy
Right? All of those outside factors influence your ability to grow. Number four is how they, a goldfish does in its first four months of life.
Stan Phelps (56:09.622)
So they're tiny when they're born. have 80 to a hundred brothers and sisters. You imagine that they're the size of a top of a pin. and so how they do in that critical period will also be a factor of their growth. And so we say in business, what do you call your first four months of life in business? You're a startup, right? And how you get started.
Stan Phelps (56:37.862)
is a big factor in how well you ultimately do. Number five is genetic makeup. Right? So what is that goldfish born with that kind of separates it from all the other goldfish and the stronger their genes are and the more that they're separated, the bigger they typically grow. Conversely, if their genes are weak,
and they're like everyone else, the less they typically grow. So what do you think genetic makeup is if you're in business? How you're, what makes you different? Yeah, it's your differentiation. And we're gonna come right back to what we've talked about today. You don't differentiate by what you do.
Stan Phelps (57:31.806)
Right? If we're being honest, we live in the day of the internet. There's a ton of other people that do what we do. Right? How do you differentiate? You differentiate by how you do it. And maybe more importantly, why you do it, the warmth and the competence, right? And so I tell people, right? If you've already been in business for more than four months,
Stan Phelps (58:00.598)
You and I've been both doing this for more than 10 years. We're out of the remaining four things. What do you control? Okay. Do you control the market? No. How about your competition?
Stan Phelps (58:16.928)
How about the economy? know, please, I tell people I joke, go, please see me afterwards, right? The only thing you control is how you differentiate.
Stan Phelps (58:32.68)
and stand out. And again, it's not by what you do. It's why you do it. And I think is equally important. It's how you do it. What's the experience that you provide as you deliver that what? And so that's the metaphor of the goldfish is that if you think about it, it's just a metaphor for growth via differentiation.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (59:04.428)
Yeah. I love it, Stan. Well, if folks want to keep in touch with you and what you've got going on, where's the best place for them to find you?
Stan Phelps (59:13.856)
So I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. Reach out to me or follow me on LinkedIn. You can also look me up at stanfelps .com.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (59:23.276)
You got it. I'll drop those those links in the in the notes. So open up the notes in the show in this episode and check him out. So thanks again, Stan. This is great. And for you tuning in right now, can I give you something? Do you have a friend or colleague who you've talked about purpose with? You've had these conversations like, why are we doing this or should I make a change or that kind of thing? Would you share the link to this episode specifically?
with them right now, because Stan and I would love to know that our conversation actually touched people that are facing purpose and productivity and leveling up their productivity. The purpose question, a few texts back and forth directly with you, not post on social media, but like a direct text to a friend that because you thought about them, that would that's going to fill up their cup in your cup way more than any sort of posting on.
So that's my request is if you could text somebody the link to this episode, if you thought about them, please do that for your friendship with them. That'd be amazing. Yes, more hell yes. Please find that. Yes. And and hell yes, that's I love it. And and whether you've joined my membership and you've taken or you've taken the first step of joining the email list or this is just your very first episode, I love sharing productivity gladiator with you because together
Stan Phelps (01:00:28.478)
More hell yeses, right, Brian? Yes And…
Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:00:49.57)
these productivity skills are going to change your life. That's a wrap.