In this engaging episode, project management expert Bonnie Biafore shares invaluable insights about the human skills and techniques that software and AI simply can't replace. She reveals her top "non-tech hacks" for successful project management, including smart approaches to estimating, cost management, and running effective meetings. Whether you're a seasoned project manager or just starting out, you'll learn practical strategies for leading teams, negotiating outcomes, and organizing information that will make you more effective in any project role.
The Video
The Audio/Podcast
References In This Episode
The Eisenhower Matrix video (mentioned when discussing time management and prioritization)
Book by the FBI hostage negotiator - "Never Split the Difference" by Chris Voss
Ways to connect with Bonnie Biafore:
The Project Management Institute (PMI) Rocky Mountain Chapter
Information about Toastmasters
Episode Digest
In a world dominated by project management tools and AI, it’s easy to forget that the true magic of project management lies in human skills.
In an era where AI and project management software dominate conversations about productivity, it's crucial to remember that successful project management still hinges on human skills and expertise that technology cannot replicate. Here's a comprehensive look at the essential human elements that make project managers effective, regardless of the tools they use.
"The value of project management isn't in the tools—it’s in the people managing the projects."
The Limitations of Project Management Software
Even the most sophisticated project management tools and AI have significant limitations. Three key areas where software falls short:
Estimating Complexity
While AI can provide estimates based on historical data, it can't account for the unique challenges of each project, team dynamics, and contextual factors that experienced project managers understand intuitively. The human ability to consider multiple variables and draw from past experiences remains invaluable.
Cost Management Nuances
Software excels at tracking time and materials but struggles with complex cost factors like delays, market impact, or reputation costs. Project management tools typically can't handle varied cost types like fixed-price contracts, training, travel, or timing-dependent expenses.
Resource Allocation Reality
Tools struggle to account for the real-world complexity of resource management - from vacation schedules to part-time availability and competing project priorities. Even advanced software like Microsoft Project can't fully optimize resource allocation across these various constraints.
Essential Human Skills for Project Managers
Here are the critical skills that set successful project managers apart:
1. Communication Mastery
Adapt communication style for different audiences
Learn individual preferences for communication
Practice active listening
Understand when and how to share information effectively
"Communication isn't just you puking up information into your audiences. It's about listening and learning how to listen well."
2. Time Management
Differentiate between urgency and importance
Block time for strategic thinking
Master prioritization
Learn to manage competing demands
3. Negotiation Skills
Key Insight: Negotiation isn't always about compromise. Sometimes you need to:
Find what's important to others that doesn't matter to you
Look for win-win scenarios
Know when to stand firm on non-negotiable items
Build relationships through strategic give-and-take
4. Information Organization
Develop systematic approaches to managing large amounts of data
Create logical naming conventions for files and folders
Structure information for easy retrieval
Balance both art and science in organization methods
"Even on a small project, you will end up having a lot of information. And then if you get on a really big project, it's ridiculous how much information there is."
5. Meeting Management
Critical Practice: Run efficient meetings by:
Inviting only essential participants
Managing costs by limiting unnecessary attendance
Using a "parking lot" for off-topic discussions
Capturing and assigning action items
Taking detailed discussions "offline"
6. Leadership and Problem-Solving
Develop creative thinking for unique solutions
Build trust with team members
Learn to delegate effectively
Practice public speaking skills
Practical Project Management Hacks
Smart Estimation Technique: Instead of asking for single estimates, to provide a more realistic range and helps account for uncertainty, request three numbers:
Optimistic scenario
Pessimistic scenario
Most likely scenario
Buffer Management: Rather than allowing individual padding of estimates, create shared buffers at the end of task sequences. This encourages more accurate individual estimates while still protecting the project timeline.
"If you run a meeting well, people will love you and you will be able to get a lot more done in your projects."
Task Ownership: Assign every task to a specific person, not a team or group. Use a responsibility matrix (RACI) to clarify:
Who is Responsible
Who is Accountable
Who needs to be Consulted
Who needs to be Informed
Getting Started or Improving Your Skills
For those looking to develop project management skills:
Assess Your Skills: Review each skill mentioned above and honestly evaluate your proficiency. If it's not a "hell yes," it's an area for improvement.
Gain Experience: Volunteer with nonprofits to practice project management skills. This provides:
Real-world experience
Opportunity to make and learn from mistakes
Practice in delegation (since you'll likely be balancing with other commitments)
Concrete examples for your portfolio
Continuous Learning: Take advantage of:
Professional organizations like PMI
LinkedIn Learning courses
Toastmasters for public speaking
Industry conferences and symposiums
The most successful project managers combine technical knowledge with these essential human skills. While software and AI can handle many tactical aspects of project management, the strategic thinking, relationship building, and complex problem-solving abilities of human project managers remain irreplaceable.
Remember: Project management isn't just about tracking tasks and timelines - it's about leading people, solving problems creatively, and delivering results through effective team collaboration. Focus on developing these human skills alongside technical proficiency for maximum impact in your project management role.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Project Management Hacks
02:28 The Unique Perspective of Bonnie Biafore
04:33 Limitations of Software and AI in Project Management
06:53 Estimating and Cost Management Challenges
08:57 Scheduling and Resource Allocation Issues
11:44 The Importance of People Skills in Project Management
13:48 Non-Tech Hacks for Effective Project Management
15:15 Training New Project Managers: Essential Human Skills
25:32 Mastering Time Management
27:01 The Art of Negotiation
30:25 Organizing Information Effectively
31:44 Running Effective Meetings
35:05 Leadership and Problem Solving
38:09 The Importance of Delegation
39:44 Passion for Project Management
Today’s Guest
Bonnie biafore
LinkedIn Learning Author &
Consultant on Project Management
Bonnie Biafore is a seasoned project management expert, consultant, and LinkedIn Learning instructor with a passion for making complex concepts relatable. With over 35 years of experience, she has authored more than 35 technical books, including bestsellers on project management and financial software. Bonnie has helped businesses large and small streamline processes, improve team dynamics, and achieve project success. Her engaging teaching style and real-world insights make her a sought-after speaker and educator in the field.
Connect with her at:
linkedin.com/in/bonniebiafore
bonniebiafore.com
Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian shares separate hacks, tips, and actionable learning exclusively for his email subscribers. Sign up so you don’t miss out!
About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a leader at all levels, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. Graduates wield time management & life balance superpowers, activate a laser-guided ability to focus & prioritize, and implement a sniper-precise approach to task & email management. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat!
Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.
Transcript
Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:06)
I'm Brian Nelson Palmer on this show. share personal, practical, productivity skills. And in this episode, we're talking about project management hacks, skills and tools you can't get from software or AI. And with me on the show today is Bonnie Biafore, who's a LinkedIn learning author and a consultant on project management. Bonnie, thanks so much for being here with
Bonnie Biafore (00:29)
Well, Brian, thanks for inviting me. This is going to be fun.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:33)
Absolutely.
And now, you know, so we're about to talk about project management skills and hacks and that kind of stuff. So for those folks who aren't already familiar with you, tell them about you and how you're related to this topic.
Bonnie Biafore (00:43)
Well, so I was actually like born to be a project manager. You know, from a very early age, I was organizing things.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:49)
What was that? Really? yeah.
Bonnie Biafore (00:53)
drove my mother crazy. But what's interesting is I ended up going to college and grad school and had a master's in engineering and started working as an engineer and just did not like it. And just by chance, I got the opportunity to manage a project.
And of course, I knew nothing about project management, so I learned a lot by making mistakes. But I ended up, I mean, it just, came very naturally to me. And then over the years, it's, you know, the great thing about project management here,
Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:23)
huh.
Bonnie Biafore (01:32)
I get bored very easily. So the thing that I love about project management is one, I'm good at it, but two, every project is different. project management is never boring and there's always something new to learn. So basically if you're a lifelong learner, it's perfect.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:50)
Bonnie, you're preaching to the choir with me Like that's my that's my career also. And so I totally understand that every project is different. And that's kind of what makes it fun for me is like now you're working on this and then you're working on this. And so it keeps it interesting. I love that. That's a really good point. Now, for those, there's a lot of. ahead.
Bonnie Biafore (01:59)
It's.
And the
other thing I was going to say is, you know, I use project management, you know, in my life all the time. mean, it's, know, whether it's, you know, cooking a big dinner for friends or, you know, going on vacation or whatever it is, I am managing that as a project.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:17)
So true. Yeah.
It like happens that you don't even think about it, but you're like, well, then here's the steps to this project and here's how this is going to roll out. Totally Well, now for there's a lot of people out there who talk about project management. So what would you say makes you a little different from everybody else out there that's doing this?
Bonnie Biafore (02:29)
Mm-hmm.
Well, let's see. For one thing, I don't take myself too seriously. I mean, I can be serious, but you know, I used to write technical books and I made them funny because the things I wrote about were very dry. And you're talking about adult learners. So I would
Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:49)
Okay, sure.
Bonnie Biafore (03:04)
you know, I actually had people contact me and say, I had to explain why I was laughing reading a book about accounting and bookkeeping. I, yeah, I try to, I try to, I try to make things relatable.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:17)
yeah. Got it. So you don't take yourself too seriously.
Absolutely let's let's jump into our topic then so today we're talking about. Those project management hacks skills and tools can't get from software so just for context when I said software in preparation for this I was thinking OK it's sought project management software and AI so I was thinking about you're not going to get these things from.
Asana or Trello or Microsoft Project or the AI ones like chat GPT or any of those. Now are there other ones that came to mind for you when I said project management software and AI?
Bonnie Biafore (03:57)
Yeah, well, for project management software, there are a lot of tools out there, particularly the lighter weight tools, which honestly, I think are more for work management than project management. But they're out there like Trello, Basecamp.
I use Basecamp just to keep track of all of my to-dos, my infinite to-do list. But, you know, other ones that are kind of at the middle level, which are probably worth, you know, talking about, we've got monday.com, Wrike, and Smartsheet is...
is interesting because it's, it's, it really is like a super smart spreadsheet, but they've added a lot of things to it. So like those, those three, you know, when I, cause I've evaluated a lot of tools and they're, you know, they're pretty good. And when you get to that high end, like you said, Microsoft, you know, particularly if you're going to go to project online,
Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:49)
So.
Bonnie Biafore (04:57)
If you have lots of projects and if you have very complicated projects, then Project Online and Primavera can handle a lot. However, they often require a knowledgeable consultant to get them set up. I have people, it's like I work with Project Online, but...
Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:15)
big time. Yeah.
Bonnie Biafore (05:22)
I could not set it up for somebody. It's just, it's very complicated and primavera as well.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:28)
So let me ask you this, Bonnie, Like even with the advanced software and AI that's available, what can't they do?
Bonnie Biafore (05:31)
Yeah.
Well, there are a couple of things. The first one I will mention is estimating. And the thing about estimating is you can actually get that from, particularly from the AI side.
However, there's a lot of estimating given again that every project is different. Every project has a different team, has different challenges. That's where having just having that je ne sais quoi of knowledge in people's heads of, you know, given
Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:54)
Yeah.
Bonnie Biafore (06:07)
Given what we're looking at or given these constraints or given the people who we have on the project, here is my estimate of what it's going to take. then you can also, for example, one of the estimating tools that I really like is the Delphi method, where you get a bunch of experts together and you say,
know, come up with your estimate and then you share the estimates. You don't share like why, but you just share the estimates amongst the group. And then if somebody, you know, estimated a lower amount, they might start thinking about, why, know, hmm, maybe I forgot. And you do a couple of rounds of that until everyone starts to get, you know, closer.
to the same number. And so, yeah, I mean, in some ways, you could say, oh, well, you know, we could get like three AIs together and, you know, they could do the same thing. But honestly, right now, I would not trust that.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (06:53)
Yeah, they come to a consensus of sorts. They all started at different places. Yeah.
my god, like total side note Bonnie, I have to share this with you. It's so funny that you just said that because I totally do that. And what I think about it like it's it's knowledge by committee in that I inherently don't trust an AI because they like the best metaphor is that my gosh, it was I did a there was a show we were talking about. It's like having an intern. They're really smart.
Bonnie Biafore (07:22)
Yes.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:33)
but like book smart and they're not street smart. So the stuff they say is like, I don't know. So I will feed it to one and then I will copy and paste from one into another and ask, is there anything about this that doesn't make sense? And I will like, so it's almost the Delphi method that you just talked about except using AIs. I totally do that.
Bonnie Biafore (07:33)
Yeah.
So I think that the experience that people have...
in a lot of cases that they really can't explain. They just have this intuition and you know when you think about just the amount of experience that that people have you know even I mean even someone who's 20 years old they've still had 20 years worth of experience and that stuff is just sort of simmering in there and you you just can't get that from from tools.
So that's one thing.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (08:24)
got estimated.
Okay, that's a that's a really good one. What else
Bonnie Biafore (08:27)
The
second thing is cost management. Now, I will start by saying...
my first couple of projects were, you they were very small projects. They were very informal, small, small teams. And, you know, like I didn't, I didn't actually, you know, have to do like a formal risk management plan. And this one project like really didn't have a budget, you know, cause it was just, it was very small. was mostly me. So I just did it. However,
you know, if you're going to, if you're really going to do projects smart, you want to say, okay, what is the goal of the project? What are the outcomes that we want to get from this project? And, you know, is the cost of the project, you know, worth the outcomes? You you have that business case that you need to achieve. So,
Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:17)
No.
Bonnie Biafore (09:19)
you know, so you're going to have a budget or you're, you're, may be tracking revenue, know, increased revenue, what, what have you. And honestly, like the, all of the software tools really don't do a good job at all on cost management. They don't, they don't have the features to, track the different kinds of costs. I mean, they, they will to some extent, but
You you think about the, just the variations of costs that you can have. And a lot of times it, you're just, you're having to force it to, I mean, I tend to with, with projects, I end up outputting data and using spreadsheets and. You know, outside of the project management tools, because they, really, they just don't handle costs.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:51)
No.
Right. Because the because the time
in the time and materials are the two things that the project management tools can track. Right. Like people's time. How many hours? How many people at what rate they do that? And then they of course have. All right. And now we have to buy these materials or these softwares or these whatever fixed priced things. That's one. But then how do you factor in the price to delay by a month? Because you like then this is going to cause.
Bonnie Biafore (10:34)
Yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:35)
CNN to pick up the news and then that's going to make you the stock price go down. I mean, like there's like you can't possibly that project manager software can't do that. It's just time and materials. That's what they do.
Bonnie Biafore (10:38)
Yep.
Well, and
yeah, and then there but there there's also there and there are other there are other kinds of costs. I mean, you know, you have things like, you know, travel or the cost of a training class. If you if you have if you're bringing a contractor in on a fixed price contract, and then and then there's also the timing of the costs.
Like when, because they don't, I mean, you're right, with time or with labor, yes, the tools can track when that labor cost occurs. But when you have something like travel, so when do you want to have that appear in the project?
Same thing with the contractor, things like, permits, different things like that. So there are a lot of things that, I know that, for example, some of the tools that I looked at, they wouldn't even handle the labor costs. You would basically just put a cost on a task. That was it.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (11:44)
Wow, yes.
Well, hopefully it's. Tens of thousands of this many tens of thousands of dollars in labor costs, but if we go over by a month, then it's going to be way beyond that and you can't subdivide that. Wow, that yeah, it's true. I love that. So estimating. And cost control.
Bonnie Biafore (11:57)
Yeah.
the another one, and I do, I'm not sure I have a funny story about it, but another, another thing that tools don't do a very good job with is even if they offer like Gantt charts for scheduling. So you actually have a Gantt chart and you can, you can create dependencies between tasks. And it's like,
I have a schedule, great. But the tools, when it comes down to, first of all, when you start assigning people to tasks and then they go on vacation or something else happens or there's a delay and then that person isn't available, they can't start until a certain date, there's just, there
or people work different, they don't work full-time, they have varying schedules.
And when you start taking into account all of these different things that happen with the people who work on the project, there just aren't enough features to make that happen. And so the somewhat funny story is, you know, I use Microsoft Project a lot and I have spent hours, probably days, maybe even weeks.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:57)
Yeah.
Bonnie Biafore (13:13)
playing around with the resource allocation tool in Microsoft Project to try to get it to work out when tasks need to occur based on the various constraints in the project. It's like, no matter what I did,
it really just, can't do it because it's very complicated. I think there are probably some software tools out there that...
that people have put together specifically to handle those things. But that ability just does not seem to be available in all the main tools on the market.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:03)
It makes perfect sense that that would the more complicated the the more many different factors there are the more they interplay between each other and even though even AI is good at even understanding some of that scenario, but it can't you know, what's funny is this all circles back to the one note I made for myself going into this episode. The first thing that came to mind for me was all the people stuff. The people stuff is what
Bonnie Biafore (14:27)
Yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:29)
AI software, none of it can do right. You got you got to deal with all of the people as a project manager. You're dealing with all the different personalities. You talked about hours. You talked about somebody going on vacation. You got this person's part time and they only work on Fridays, which means even if you plan it for a five day period, but they don't get it that Friday, it's going to be a whole nother week because I mean, like the and it's not even that like the person's part time. It might just be you only have access to them for.
Bonnie Biafore (14:35)
Hmm?
Yes.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:57)
four hours a week because there are other projects too. I would like there's so all those different factors. And that's where the beauty of your brain, you as a human being, you as a really experienced project manager, that's where you deliver. The value is all of the people stuff because they cannot outsource that to software.
This is maybe like a random question, but I want to ask you since you've been in this game for a long time. Bonnie, what's the what are your some of your favorite non tech hacks that you can use to manage projects effectively? What what comes to mind for you?
Bonnie Biafore (15:27)
Okay,
the first thing is if it isn't offered to you, ask for contingency time and money for your project.
And that contingency time and money can be helpful in a lot of different ways. I first of all, when you think about risks, there are risks that you can identify. And if you can identify them, you can plan for them and you can plan how you're going to handle them if they actually occur.
But then there are there are unforeseeable risks. And you, you need contingency to handle these things. Because you can always if you have your risks that you identified and you you put, you actually put some money into the budget and time into the schedule to address those things.
just have it there that you can use. then there's then there are the things that you really can't foresee and that contingency time really comes in handy.
how you choose contingency time. A lot of times companies will, they will have a percentage that they will, you know, allocate based on the budget for the project. And, you know, and if they, if they have something like that, then that, that's what you get unless you have some way to, you know, to convince them otherwise.
The other thing, which is somewhat related to contingency time, but it's a little bit different, is when you have your project schedule and you have all these tasks and you have certain tasks that come in a sequence that leads up to a deliverable and there are all these different parts.
If you ask people to estimate, going back to the estimating, here's a people thing. You will have people who will pad their estimates when they give them to you because they want to have that flexibility. It's human nature. If you want to succeed, you're going to do that.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:30)
Sure.
Sure.
Yeah.
Bonnie Biafore (17:36)
The next thing is project managers will pad the estimates that they give to management again to make sure everything goes well and that they in the end look good. so the thing is, first of all, so how do you know whether an estimate is padded and how do you know?
how many levels of padding went into the estimate that finally gets to the person who's going to approve the project. I mean, it's just.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:00)
it.
Bonnie Biafore (18:06)
It's almost impossible. here is my hack.
What you do is you add shared buffers in your schedule. So at the end of a string of tasks, you will have a buffer that can handle things that go wrong, delays and someone getting sick, whatever it is.
But not every task is going to be a disaster. instead of, and if you explain to people, it's like we have a shared buffer. So you don't have to protect yourself in your estimates because we've added these buffers to the sequences. And that way,
Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:34)
Right.
Bonnie Biafore (18:49)
You know, and I'm not saying it's going to be instantaneous that they're going to feel comfortable, but just working with people and letting them know that that is there. basically, you know, we've got CYA built in. You have a much better chance of having more accurate estimates that are not padded.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:08)
And that's also helpful because then you, you call it out specifically in terms of this is how long that I think it's going to take at the time. And this is the buffer. And so you do differentiate that. So when you're the project manager, you can look at that and know that, and you can share that with higher ups Yeah. that's a, that's a really good point. I like that.
Bonnie Biafore (19:26)
Yeah.
And another related point to that is you also don't ask people for one number.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:37)
Hmm. Yes, three, right? Low, medium, high, right? Give it to him. Yeah.
Bonnie Biafore (19:39)
Yeah, well
it's actually pessimistic, optimistic, and most likely. And the most likely might not be right in the middle. The most likely could be closer to the optimistic or closer to the pessimistic.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:54)
Ooh, I like those words. Yes, you know I love
I like those words so much better pessimistic optimistic and most likely and you're right.
Bonnie Biafore (20:04)
that and that's now there there are some software tools out there that can actually work with you know with that variation because I mean you think about
financial software. mean, whenever I go to like my financial advisor and then they show me the graphs of all the possibilities of what my investments might do. And they're all over the place and projects are the same way. So there is some software that can handle that, for the most part,
what you do is you can use a formula to calculate the number that you want to use based on the pessimistic, optimistic, most likely. And then you add that with your buffers and your contingency to give yourself a chance to succeed.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:54)
No.
Yeah.
You know, Bonnie, I've got one that I'll throw in here too, I think of it as a non tech hack, but one of the biggest mistakes I feel like is tasks get lost in the group, meaning, we have to do this or we have to try this or we have to, so every task has to be assigned to a person.
And you as the project manager hold that one person accountable. Because what happens is this team provided this thing and then you have feedback which goes back to the team and everybody on the team went. I thought you were doing it and it's like no I didn't. sorry. we didn't do it and so instead it's always any of your tasks that you give have somebody's name attached to it and it's their job to lead it. Even if they're not doing it, they're the one that's fielding it or something.
making sure that when you give a task, it's associated with a person. I think that's huge.
Bonnie Biafore (21:49)
I agree with that. going to do a yes and. So in addition, you absolutely need to have an owner for everything. But there is a form in project management called the responsibility matrix.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (21:53)
yes, Ann! Let's do it! Yes, Ann!
Bonnie Biafore (22:09)
What that does is it actually has multiple levels. So you have the person who is accountable for something, which is your owner. But you also have people who will be consulted on this or who will just be informed.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (22:15)
Okay.
Yes.
Bonnie Biafore (22:32)
or
who is responsible. So you'll see it a lot of time as RACI because one of the problems is something gets dropped and that nobody does it. And another problem, which in some cases could be even worse is when you have more than one person who is determined that they are going to be in control of something.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (22:54)
Yes. Yep. And then you got competition on who's actually gosh. Yeah, well, that's a really good point. Well, Bonnie, what's. Let's do what I want to do. This is the one question, and I feel like this is one of the gold parts of this this episode that we can talk about is, let's say you're training a new project manager. What are the human skills or techniques?
that you would prioritize over software skills. so that you listening to this, if any of the things we're about to list, because I've got my little thoughts that I was going to share, and I know Bonnie, you probably got some too. So as we run down this list, if any of these things are weak spots for you, there's going to be opportunities here on finding this, because I think these are the human skills.
Bonnie Biafore (23:29)
Okay.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (23:41)
that you need to be successful, no matter how big or how small your projects are, this is what you bring to the table, regardless of the AI environment that we're in right now. So yeah, go ahead, Bonnie.
Bonnie Biafore (23:51)
Okay, well, I am going to preface this by going back to what I said when I was describing my life as a project manager is project managers need to be able to do a lot of different things. They need a lot of soft skills. They need a lot of technical skills. There are a lot of things that they need to be able to do and
you will be you will be learning throughout your career. So don't don't kick yourself if you're you're going dumb dumb dumb I didn't know how to do that it's it's just it's going to take time. So I actually and I made a I made a list because there are a lot but
The first group is these are things that come up right away and they are super important. So the first one is communication. And that is...
That is not just communicating with people. It's about understanding that you have to communicate differently to different audiences. You need to do background to understand. You also have to have the wisdom to learn people's preferences for
how they are communicated with. It's about listening and learning how to listen well. There's so much and one of the great things about learning to communicate well is
know that's not just for project management but that that applies to everything you do in your life so
that's the first place to start.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:30)
Yeah, this is good. Keep going.
Bonnie Biafore (25:33)
next one is time management.
because there is so much to do. I worked on this one project with a big telephone company. even though I was working for one of the small companies that was part of the project, I had so much to do.
I was working really long weeks and you know, the different time zones. So like I started super early and a lot of times I would work past everyone else was gone. I was the only person in the office.
You have to, you have to be able to, to manage your time. You, you need to understand prioritizing. need to understand the difference between, it's a Stephen Covey thing. It's uh, urgency and importance. There are things that are urgent and they are not important. And so you have to learn.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (26:32)
Yep.
Bonnie Biafore (26:36)
to not get sucked into those and you need to learn to prioritize and actually put longer periods in your calendar so that you can actually think about the things that are really important but that aren't urgent.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (26:52)
Yes. Yes,
prioritizing that stuff. it's the Eisenhower matrix, which Covey is is referencing. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, I like that, Bonnie.
Bonnie Biafore (26:58)
Mm
Yeah. Another thing is negotiation.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:05)
yes.
Bonnie Biafore (27:06)
because regardless of the size of the project, regardless of how many people are working on it, I work on projects where I am the only person on it and I'm still negotiating with myself, which proves to be very challenging.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:22)
so true.
Bonnie Biafore (27:25)
You will be negotiating with executives. You will be negotiating with vendors, with contractors, with team members. There will always be things to negotiate. so it's worth learning.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:47)
Bonnie, I want to yes and with you on this one, because this was one of mine that I brought to. But the point that I want to make, too, is that there's different kinds of negotiation, right? I feel like sometimes negotiation, if you're coming in from the outside or depending on how much experience you have, negotiating might just seem like, all right, I start here and they start there and then we end up in the middle. And that's like compromise. And when you're a project manager, there are times where there is no compromise. You are negotiating to get your way.
100 % and there is no negotiation, but it's going to feel like a negotiation back and forth. So sometimes you're good meeting in the middle. Sometimes they're wrong and you need to get them around sometimes. So it's like it's negotiating in different. Maybe it's not different forms. That's also there's a little bit of sales and a little bit of selling. You like there's a lot that goes into that. But when we say negotiation, it's just not always meet in the middle. That's not negotiation.
Bonnie Biafore (28:25)
you
Mm-hmm.
And another thing with when you're in those negotiations where it's not compromise, you know, one of the techniques that I really like is that idea of at least attempting
to find something that is important to the other person that you don't care about. So you can you can give them something that they want that really just doesn't affect you at all and and then they'll you know they'll be hopefully more more willing to you know give you something that is important to you. So and it's it's interesting how often that
Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:03)
Yes.
Totally.
Bonnie Biafore (29:22)
that really is true because people have different things that they want.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:26)
Yeah, if you show up in your eye when you lose, nobody wants to lose. So then you just turned it into a fight that it didn't need to be.
Look, here's how it's going to work out. Here's the way we want it to work out. And when it does this way, it's going to be good for us for these reasons. It's going to be good for you for these reasons. It's not always a lose. That's a really good point.
Bonnie Biafore (29:45)
Yeah,
Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:46)
All right, what else you got on that list?
Bonnie Biafore (29:46)
Okay,
so I have two that go into the category of part art, part science. And the first one is organizing lots of information.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:57)
Okay.
Ooh, okay.
Bonnie Biafore (30:04)
Because even on a small project, you will end up having a lot of information. And then if you get on a really big project, it's ridiculous how much information there is. And I'll go down to even a micro level. One of the things, because I did a lot of technical writing, I'm a pretty good writer.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:15)
Totally.
Bonnie Biafore (30:25)
Even getting the points you want to make in an article, like a short magazine article, getting the points you want to make in an order that makes sense can be really challenging for a lot of people.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:41)
Yeah.
Bonnie Biafore (30:41)
Because
if you jump around, it makes it very difficult to understand. So organizing information really applies from the micro to the macro level. And I say it's part art and part science because clearly there are document management systems that can help you. I have these weird
Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:47)
area.
Bonnie Biafore (31:07)
little techniques that I use just in terms of naming folders and files to keep things organized. you know, it's always funny when I see how other people name files and it's just like, how can you possibly find what you need? So
Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:15)
Yes.
God, tell me about it.
Bonnie Biafore (31:26)
So that's where the art comes in of just thinking about how you are going to make the information easy to find, easy to understand. And then it's part science because you can use tools and there are all sorts of ways to do that. But that's one of them.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:44)
Yeah.
Bonnie Biafore (31:45)
And the second one is, this second one, you will have a fan club if you master this one, and that is to run meetings well.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:03)
OHAHAHA-
Yes, yes, preach sister. Yes, I love it. my God. I'm always saying that man. I teach my number one session right now at conferences. I'm getting booked all over the place for this one and the name of the session is this meeting could have been an email. And like, my gosh, yes meetings. This is my so keep going. I'm sorry I interrupted because I got so excited. No, you're saying yeah.
Bonnie Biafore (32:09)
Because...
Mm-hmm.
Okay, as
a project manager, one of the reasons that running meetings well is particularly important in a project is when you have a task in a project for a meeting, the more people you invite to the meeting, the duration does not change, but the number of work hours and the cost involved
goes up very, very quickly. So you want to make sure that you have the people who need to be at the meeting and they need to be there and no one who doesn't need to be there. That's.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (33:02)
So and you know, can we just say, Bonnie, if you were working with a contractor or a project manager or someone who is doing this and they are not good about this and you're part of you're on the side of the people that are paying the bill, please be vocal about these people do not need to be here because you're right. If they're making 50, 100, 200, I mean, some of these contracts, if you look at them, 500, 600, 1000, some of these attorneys are making multiple thousands of dollars an hour.
You do not want to pay that person's bill to just sit there if you don't need them in the meeting. So yes, good point. like man. Yes.
Bonnie Biafore (33:40)
And the other thing, the other part of that too is, and I see this all the time and I...
and I'm pretty brutal about this because I just I can't stand it is you know the people who are very passionate about whatever the particular thing is that they're talking about and there ends up being this focused conversation about this topic and there will be you know eight other people sitting there going
And it's like, take it offline. know, do the thing where you have the parking lot on the whiteboard and it's like, okay, this is for you to take it offline. Let us know how it turns out.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:10)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yes, totally.
Bonnie Biafore (34:22)
And you know, like I've called people on that. I usually don't do it publicly. But after the first time it happens and I know that somebody tends to do that, I just will make sure that it doesn't happen. But yeah, if you run a meeting well, just like people will love you and
you'll be able to get a lot more in your projects if you, you know, one, don't waste people's time, but two, actually make the meetings effective. You know, make sure that, that you've, you've captured all the action items you, and you've gotten owners for those action items. just it goes on and on.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:50)
Yes.
Yes,
totally. My gosh.
Bonnie Biafore (35:05)
And then there are another couple that are very important. I will say some people are naturals at these, other people are just gonna have to work very hard to learn it, practice it. First one is leadership.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:10)
Okay.
Yeah, OK, certainly.
Bonnie Biafore (35:23)
Some people are natural
leaders if you aren't a natural leader It's gonna take a lot of work, but you can learn to lead But it's it you so you know take the time I've
Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:34)
Yes, I agree.
Bonnie Biafore (35:40)
You know, when I go to the project management Institute, I, I'm actually, you know, involved with our, our Denver, the Rocky mountain chapter. And so we have this big symposium every year and the keynote speakers, they're not always about leadership, but the ones. The ones that have been about leadership, it's amazing. The, the, the nuggets that you get, just from listening to someone and you're like, yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:04)
Mm-hmm. So, all right.
Bonnie Biafore (36:05)
That's something I can
apply. and then the other one, the other one is problem solving.
Problem solving is, you know, because there are always problems in projects. There's always something that you have to sort out, figure out, like, what are we going to do about this? So.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:22)
Yeah.
What and you know what I by now at this point, so I'm going to have listed these in your show notes and if there's any of these that you don't look at and say confidently, if this is a hell yes or no situation where you look at that thing on that list and you're like hell yes, I'm good at this or. If it's not hell yes, if you're like well, maybe or a little bit. No, that means no, and that's where your opportunity is and take some courses on.
Like I like like Bonnie said, you're not going to this isn't you're not going to be an expert overnight. It's not like you missed this class in college or something. A lot of the stuff is you just haven't had to face it before. And so you learn it. But go down this list that you're looking at. And if any of these things are things you don't have, then look into LinkedIn learning. Obviously, you can find Bonnie on LinkedIn learning so you can take some courses there. They're not super expensive. A lot of the stuff is available online. You can ask chat GPT about it. You can.
Some of these things are good, but also it comes with just practicing it and doing it. So get the education, but then try that experience too. I hope that you dig in.
Bonnie Biafore (37:27)
And the thing with
problem solving that can be challenging is the fact that a lot of times problem solving requires creativity. And if you're not a creative person, that will probably not be one of your...
Brian Nelson-Palmer (37:36)
Yes.
Bonnie Biafore (37:41)
you know, really strong skills ever be just because you need to be able to think out of the box a lot of times.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (37:48)
sure. Well, Bonnie, I've got two that I'm to add and then I got one more question for you. So two that I wanted to add that as I as I was because I had made my list to the couple that come to mind first is public speaking. If you don't already have the skill of public speaking or like it's a hell yes or no. If I ask you, are you good at public speaking? If you don't answer, hell yes. Then practice is real easy. And that's Toastmasters. If you haven't already signed up for Toastmasters.
Bonnie Biafore (38:08)
Yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:14)
There's they've got something called a competent communicator where you can. It's a certain amount of speeches that you have to give, but it's really just that continuous practice. Everyone that I've watched who has struggled with public speaking, who has consistently done Toastmasters all the way through and gotten, they got like a couple of levels. So go finish a couple of those levels of Toastmasters. That's a real opportunity there because you're going to need it when you're running projects. It's always public speaking. It's going to be a skill.
Bonnie Biafore (38:39)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:40)
I think that one's a big one. And the other one is delegation you cause the project managers that sink are the ones who don't know how to give the task to someone else and then let them do it because there's so much to do. Like Bonnie said, you know how much she was working hours and hours and night, like there's always going to be more to do than you have time to do. So being able to leverage the team and give away the stuff and not keep it for yourself is a skill.
Bonnie Biafore (38:51)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (39:08)
And so if you didn't, if I said delegation and you didn't say, hell yes, I'm good at this, then it's time to practice and it's time to work on that a little bit. And you need to learn the most successful people are the ones that can use a team to accomplish a big thing. And so being able to delegate and work with people that are smarter than you and better than you and get the stuff done like, so good.
Bonnie Biafore (39:23)
Right.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (39:30)
So I wanted to share those two and Bonnie, one last question I wanted to ask you is clearly you've got a career in this. What does this mean for you personally? Is there a personal story about why you're passionate about project management and still working in the field all this time and.
Bonnie Biafore (39:45)
Well, you know, in some respects, I mean, I'm passionate about it in part, like I said earlier in the session that, you know, it's...
It's my nature. A lot of the things that you do in a project, they're just things that, like I'm just wired that way. I like the fact that things are always different. even take the example of, know, I worked as an engineer. I was like, well, that wasn't really quite right. Then I started managing projects.
But then, you know, and I did that for quite a while, but then I got into this thing where I started, you know, writing technical books. And, you know, I published like 35 books, and some of them are huge, like they're really
Some of my books are actually more like weapons, you know, than anything, because they're so heavy. And then, you know, I got into consulting and training and then doing the courses for LinkedIn learning. You know, like I have done so many different things, but through, you know, it's just that project management is just, is the theme through everything that I've done. And so now I mostly...
Brian Nelson-Palmer (40:39)
Hahaha
Okay.
Bonnie Biafore (41:00)
train. But, you know, people contact me all the time. And every once in a while, they'll, you somebody will have something that sounds interesting, and I will get involved with it. But so it's, it's just, yeah, it's, I just find it, I just find it to be fun, difficult, challenging.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:11)
Okay.
Bonnie Biafore (41:19)
rewarding. And the other thing, the other thing that is really cool is like I actually spend a lot of time volunteering now. And let me tell you, like nonprofits,
Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:29)
Yeah.
you-
Bonnie Biafore (41:32)
When they find out
that you're a project manager, mean, I'm managing all sorts of projects for these different organizations because, think about it, they need to do a lot with very few resources and very little money. And a project manager is really helpful with that.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:42)
Yes.
And Bonnie, for you listening, that is an amazing opportunity right there. if any of the things we just listed, the skills we just listed are things you need to practice and you're not already getting them at work, you could volunteer with a nonprofit to be their project manager and learn all of these things. And what's great about that is we just talked about delegation and how that's important. Well, if you're volunteering for them,
Bonnie Biafore (41:56)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (42:17)
You still have a career. So you don't have the time to go in full time for them too. So you have to learn how to just manage the project and let other people do the things. And so like that's like such a golden opportunity for folks who want to get better at this. my God, Bonnie, I'm so glad you dropped that little nugget. That's that's awesome.
Bonnie Biafore (42:18)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So I
have people, I have had so many people on LinkedIn who will send me messages and like, how do I get experience? Because a lot of times companies don't, they want people to have experience. So, well, how do I get experience if no one will hire me as a project manager? And it's like,
And that is my main piece of advice is volunteer. That could mean volunteering within the company you work for. I've done that. But it could be volunteering with a nonprofit. then you start and here, so here's the path, at least as I see it.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (42:56)
here for
True. Yep. Yep.
Bonnie Biafore (43:15)
is you so you volunteer, you start doing just all the regular stuff that that people they need volunteers for. And you look for places where, you know, things aren't efficient, or they aren't effective, or, you know, they're disorganized, and they're not achieving their goals. Then you can say, Hey, I, you know, I, you know, notice this, and I was thinking we could we could do a project to
achieved this outcome and I'd like to manage it. Most of the time they will go, thank you. And then you get a chance to practice and you get a chance to make mistakes and learn from them. So, yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (43:49)
Yes.
Yep.
Bonnie, I love that we ended up on that nugget. That is beautiful. Well, so Bonnie, here's what I love. I love that you've kind of spent this whole career doing all these interesting different things and it's all centered around project management. And we got to talk about the things that are not available for software from software and from AI on that. And so I love that.
Your life path has led us to this episode so that we could do this and that you're spending your life helping with these things. I just think it's very cool what you're doing. And so thank you for spending a little bit of time with me today to talk about this stuff. I think this is really helpful. There's some good nuggets in
Bonnie Biafore (44:31)
well, I really enjoyed it, so thank you for inviting me.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (44:34)
Yeah. And for people who want to keep in touch with you, if they want to circle back, or what's the best play for them to keep in touch with you?
Bonnie Biafore (44:40)
Actually, really the best thing is on LinkedIn. You can send messages or if you end up going, I actually, in addition to my courses on LinkedIn, actually do events called office hours on LinkedIn.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (44:56)
this.
Bonnie Biafore (44:57)
They're live events, but you can watch the recordings after the fact. a little bit like this. In fact, the format is a lot like this. I also have a weekly newsletter so people can comment on things or send me messages. That's probably the best way. You can go to, I have a website and you can send messages there as well.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (45:03)
Yeah. Yeah.
You got it.
Well, I will. Those links will be in your episode notes so you can check those out as well. So and for you tuning in, do you have a friend or colleague who does project management or knows that that's a part of their job or struggles with it or anything? If you would share the link to this episode specifically with them, I know Bonnie and I would love to know that our conversation today touched people that are facing project management and hit and and at the crux of where
Bonnie Biafore (45:41)
you
Brian Nelson-Palmer (45:45)
Well, there's all this software out there. Yes, you as the person are still super important. So imagine if your friend who you hadn't talked to in a bit sent you a text message like that and you guys got to catch up, wouldn't that would be that's the type of meaningful communication that I hope that you can enjoy because of this episode. So please send them a note and whether you've joined my membership or you've taken the first step of just joining the email list.
or this is your very first episode listening to productivity gladiator with you. love sharing this with you because together these productivity skills are going to change your life. That's a wrap.